Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Gaztonniller on July 12, 2010, 04:44:09 PM
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If you've seen how Spain performed this summer and how they performed in against Holland last night, would you (as a paying fan ) welcome the club adopting this more patient/passing style of play, or would it be too slow/boring for you & the Holte enders to stomach?
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I'd bloody love it, as we'd win more, however entertaining it is.
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New team required for this to be achieved.
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Although its a patient style if you watch them they try to make many of the passes forward when they can so not as methodical as first appears.
I would very much welcome a playing style where we keep the ball for longer periods and then use the quick direct counter attack as an impact change.
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i will get shot down here, but it reminds me a bit of Arsenal, who are winning as much as us at the moment. A team that dont like it up them, see a shitty away day at Bolton, and how attractive tiki taki looks like when you have just been kicked off the pitch. I like a blend of craft and directness.
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What gets me is I hear large moans and groans at VP when we do play it around with no progress. "Fuck me - goals that way Villa!" is often heard.
Personally I'd welcome it as another string to our bow, just as with anything we have to be able to know when to do it and when to be more more direct.
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I'd bloody love it, as we'd win more, however entertaining it is.
How long would that love last before the shouts of "GET IT FORWARD" started ringing out. Would fans remain happy/patient with that style for long, or is a case the fans being slowly educated to love passes backwards/ sideways for long periods before that killer forward pass is made to the forwards, or who ever and its put over the bar!!!?
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What gets me is I hear large moans and groans at VP when we do play it around with no progress. "Fuck me - goals that way Villa!" is often heard.
Yes I've heard similar shouts. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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i will get shot down here, but it reminds me a bit of Arsenal, who are winning as much as us at the moment. A team that dont like it up them, see a shitty away day at Bolton, and how attractive tiki taki looks like when you have just been kicked off the pitch. I like a blend of craft and directness.
Don't like it up them? Did you see the game yesterday? They were kicked up and down the park and still won.
I'd love it if we played that way. I'd love it even more if we developed young players the way Barca do. What they're doing is incredible.
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I did see the game yesterday, and was impressed. It was a one off for the World cup final. and after extra time, which we dont get in league games. Also, but for some excellent keeping, Holland may well have taken that game. What would worry me is 8.25 pm at Wigan athletic on a shitty february night, the pitch cut up to fuck.
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Interesting one. Spain have some gifted players, technically sound but they hardly thrilled their way to World Cup victory.... four consecutive 1-0 wins, wasn't it? It's easy to say 'we'll have some of that' but imagine the Villa winning games 1-0 and see how long patience holds. Don't really know how I'd feel about it.
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As for developing players, I think we have done a lot of that with Young, Milner, Davies, Albrighton, Clark, Gabby, potentially Delph....
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I must be a tad old fashioned but: The time to play pretty pretty stuff is when you are 2 or 3 up.
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I think we would fill the stadium every week if we started to pass it around the way Spain do! I would love to see us play foortball in that way.
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I think we would fill the stadium every week if we started to pass it around the way Spain do! I would love to see us play foortball in that way.
It bores the shit out of me. I know it takes a high level of technical ability to play that way but it hardly makes for thrilling football.
Give me the Jairmans any day.
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I think if i had the choice between Xavi and Drogba starting for Villa next season, the Drog gets it by a country mile. Direct, fast and tough. I agree with the "lets worry about pretty football when we are winning" sentiment.
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The Germans play good football too. I like to see football played on the deck with players holding onto possession. I think our game requires too much energy being expended because the other team will have a lot of possession. Football is an easier game when you have the ball and you're not chasing the team with the ball.
If we were better at holding possession we could have had a few more points on the board last season.
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i will get shot down here, but it reminds me a bit of Arsenal, who are winning as much as us at the moment. A team that dont like it up them, see a shitty away day at Bolton, and how attractive tiki taki looks like when you have just been kicked off the pitch. I like a blend of craft and directness.
That sort of thinking is why England are rubbish. Sure, Spain aren't direct, they don't play vague, risky passes to nobody in particular and give possession away cheaply - how exactly is that bad? As for "don't like it up them", well, who does like it up them? But they have the technique to deal with it.
One thing that annoys me is that people seem to think that Spain don't want to score, whereas the Germans, for instance, have been all nippy and entertaining. The Germans have played largely on the counter-attack - shock horror, how Villa play - so of course they got more space than Spain do. When Spain get the opportunity to counter-attack with pace, of course they do it as well, but they just never get the chance as everyone parks the bus against them.
Spain would probably win the Premier League, Barcelona almost definitely would and if Villa made a halfway decent attempt to imitate them we'd do a hell of a lot better than we are now.
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New team required for this to be achieved.
New manager too. It would be nice if we could string a number of passes together leave alone making it a way of life. Plus, our own Spanish member of the squad is amongst the worst passers of the ball that I've seen in professional football.
The thing that has really struck me about virtually every other team in the WC is how much more comfortable their players are on the ball compared to the England squad. The Spanish are great at receiving the ball at pace, controlling it, retaining possession and passing. They believe that their team mates will do this and accordingly move into a position where they can get the ball back. It's very, very well done but not complicated! I struggle to understand why the likes of MON cannot see how this sort of play could be beneficial to us rather that the long ball up to the big guy sort of crap.
I haven't renewed my season ticket yet, as the majority of home games last season followed the same tedious, uninspiring pattern. Not entertaining, not good even at a basic level and frustrating. THe answer to the thread question is that YES, I would love to see us employ a smart passing game and it would fill VP. MON is not the man to bring anything new, and for next season we'll see the same tired, repetitive pattern to every game. Having seen every game of this WC, it makes you realise how far England and Villa are away from playing football at the sort of level that the rest of the world can do!
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Jem, I dont think we do play long ball football at VP. I think there is a lot of patient build up that gets chastised (certainly where I sit). England dont play possesion football as they are constantly trying to get it forward, which is the way the Premier league as a rule plays, certainly United and Chelsea. Its not so much blood and thunder in la liga, and when you play a certain way to fit your league, and excel, thats why you get picked, and when they get out of their comfort zone, it becomes harder to play (see England at the WC, or some how long players from La Liga take to settle into the PL). Hargreaves was a different sort of player when Sven picked him. He got lambasted for the selection, but injuries aside was for me one of the best decisions he made. We, at Villa need to challenge in the Premier league. Not La Liga. We need to be able to compete against Arsenal, but also Blackpool, Blackburn, Wigan and Bolton. I think fancy football will struggle at these places. IMO
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As for developing players, I think we have done a lot of that with Young, Milner, Davies, Albrighton, Clark, Gabby, potentially Delph....
We bought most of those rather than bringing them through as kids but regardless, as good as they may be they aren't quite at the level of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc.
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It's not about one style. It's about being able to play several styles and systems. I'd love Villa to play more like Spain, but rather I'd like them to know how to change when things aren't going to plan. That's what holds us and Arsenal back.
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I'd love to see us playing the way Spain do. For me it's exactly how the game should be played. I think Xavi and Iniesta are absolutely brilliant to watch, even when they are not scoring. Some of the things they do just to hold on to the ball are well worth the price of admission alone.
However it should not be underestimated how difficult it is to do this. No team in England can just start to play this way, as it requires players of technical excellence some way beyond anything available today. It would require a concerted effort on the coaching front and ten years of hard effort, not to mention a fair bit of luck to develop the players necessary to play this way. Would the fans be patient enough for that? I think not.
We do pretty well on our player development, but none of the players we produce can hold onto the ball like the Spanish do. Maybe we can slowly add a bit more technical ability to our players, but I think we'd need to bring in some additional coaches to achieve this.
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Well said, cb.
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It could never happen. The Holte start getting on the players back after 2 or 3 passes between our defenders as it is, let alone 20 going back and forwards between midfielders and defenders.
Far too impatient (annoyingly so as well).
Personally, I think it's very tedious to watch.
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Just lump it in box, get it in there!
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I adopted a Spainish model once....high maintainence and she didn't do any cleaning... give me Polish any time!
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Spainish?
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Spainish?
Yeah, it's like Spain, but not quite...
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Playing like Spain would require 10 Spanish players and cost us about 500 million.
We should aspire to play like ze Germans. Tidy on the ball, well organised and breaking with pace. We're part of the way there, we just need to improve the ball retention, movement and add a couple more technically accomplished players. And of course, revert back to 4-3-3.
Spain, either too, or against their credit, never got out of 3rd gear in the tournement. Scary they could win it without ever really being at their best. But look at Arsenal. For all their pretty play, they've been miles from competing for a title for years. When they last won the league, they still had an English spine, and could compete physically as well as having the flair. Viera owned the midfield. Ljungberg worked hard and gave goals too.
Now if you get at them, they often seem a little spineless.
I think when we counter at pace we are good to watch. On the ball, when a bit more composure and consideration is required, we need to improve, and to mix our game more.
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What gets me is I hear large moans and groans at VP when we do play it around with no progress. "Fuck me - goals that way Villa!" is often heard.
Yes I've heard similar shouts. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I bet Arsenal fans used to shout similar under Graham. After 10 years of Wenger, they have learned to be patient.
So would we
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There are an awful lot of intermediate points between the way we play and the way Spain play.
Perhaps we could aim for one of those?
I would at least like to see us move off the ball, to try to keep possession when we have it, and to be less predictable (out to wing, whip in cross, repeat).
What gets me is I hear large moans and groans at VP when we do play it around with no progress. "Fuck me - goals that way Villa!" is often heard.
Play it around in the sense of hit it aimlessly from side to side in the middle of the park before giving it to one of the wingers?
Yes, I've heard that, too.
At the risk of going on and on about it, we'd make it much easier for ourselves if our players got into the habit of moving into space to give the man with the ball options.
They're not bad players. In fact, some of them are very good players. I'm sure they could do it, if the manager would try to get them playing that way.
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It's variety we need more than anything. Our style, for its faults, serves us well for the most part in the Premier League due to the way in which we play football here, but we would hit a brick wall were we to qualify for the Champions League. In much the same way that the naional team does in World Cups - the English style of football is fairly isolated from most of the rest of the world, especially continental Europe.
What we can look to mprove on is ball retention, but our mostly one-dimensional play doesn't let us do this - our attacking players our all notable for their pace or power rather than technique or inventiveness, so it makes sense to get the ball forward as quickly as possible. Hopefully (but I won't be banking on it) players with different styles will be added this summer to make us better prepared to fight all fronts.
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I think we would fill the stadium every week if we started to pass it around the way Spain do! I would love to see us play foortball in that way.
It bores the shit out of me. I know it takes a high level of technical ability to play that way but it hardly makes for thrilling football.
Give me the Jairmans any day.
Spot on.
That match last night has to have been one of the least pleasant ways I've spent two hours in a long time.
I did actually say I wished the Germans were playing as to be honest I like their style.
I want us to have a band of more technical players yes; but I'd prefer them not to piss around. So as many have said in this thread I'd like us to use some form of happy medium. Like the Germans.
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Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with England.
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I thought it was a bloody great game. Spain with 11 stars holland with maybe 2 or 3 and holland had to come up with a game plan to win. If Robben had dived and seen Puyol off it could have been different. Tactically Holland were too cautious and needed 2 up front to challenge a weakish Spanish central defence. Instead they allowed Spain stroll out with the ball. Mourinho has shown how to counteract tiki-taki football against Barca who are better than Spain. About Villa I'll take anything other than counter attacking all the time
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Can we stop the spanish myth please. Yes they deserved to beat the thuggish dutch, but they're not Barcelona (by that I mean the style of play), for large parts of the world cup they stank the place out, you can keep on blaming the opposition if you want, but they relied on Villa to get them where they were. It is only because of David Villa that they are world champs. Spain are like the German teams of the 70's - 80's methodical & not much else....... Exciting football, pull the other one please.
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I think we would fill the stadium every week if we started to pass it around the way Spain do! I would love to see us play foortball in that way.
It bores the shit out of me. I know it takes a high level of technical ability to play that way but it hardly makes for thrilling football.
Give me the Jairmans any day.
Spot on.
That match last night has to have been one of the least pleasant ways I've spent two hours in a long time.
I did actually say I wished the Germans were playing as to be honest I like their style.
I want us to have a band of more technical players yes; but I'd prefer them not to piss around. So as many have said in this thread I'd like us to use some form of happy medium. Like the Germans.
Agreed again!
The German's seemed to find a great balance between technical/possession football and actually getting forward quickly and attacking. If I was going to pick a style to model ourselves after it would be them and not the Spanish.
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Now there's a myth. The Germans didn't have to deal with playing against good defences and everyone behind the ball from minute one - that's all Spain faced, including from Germany. In fact, the times that Germany played against reasonably organised teams were the defeat to Serbia and the narrow win over Ghana, where their only chance was the moment of inspiration from Oezil. Ghana were not as good defensively as Portugal, nor Paraguay, nor Germany, nor Holland, and yet Spain managed to eke out more chances against those teams than Germany did against Ghana.
This idea that Germany get forward quickly and Spain don't is just rubbish - Germany got the chance to counter-attack quickly, Spain almost never did - and whenever they did they created chances. Germany played against an appallingly slow England and an Argentina who forgot to pick a midfield, leaving them hopelessly open on the counter. Spain never had that luxury. It's not that Spain somehow chose to be less attacking and Germany did the reverse - it's just that Germany got the chance to be and Spain didn't.
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Sorry Monty, I don't buy that. The Spanish allowed the opposition to get behind the ball by fannying around with it forever in the middle third.
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Lee, that's just totally unsubstantiated. How do you allow a team to get behind the ball if they've started there with the intention of finishing there? On the other hand, the rare occasions when Spain have got the chance to counter-attack, it's led to chances, for instance Pedro against Germany. Spain do not 'fanny around', that's just nonsense.
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No it's not, and in my opinion, yes they do.
They are a very cautious team. They dominate posession with the intent to wear the opposition out until gaps begin to appear. I'm sorry Monty but I don't enjoy watching them play. If want to see football like that I'll go down to power league thanks.
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you do get the feeling the majority of villa fans prefer the hussle/bussle style of play rather than a measured build-up retaining posession which is probably why mon is so popular.. always been that way unfortunately. me, i'd love us to play like spain but its not going to happen.
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If by cautious you mean they don't just pointlessly give the ball away, then I'll take cautious any day of the week. My main criticism of Del Bosque is the slightly unnecessary playing of Xabi Alonso AND Sergio Busquets, but I can see that he didn't want to be counter-attacked. Spain were as attacking and direct as they could have been, and in Euro 2008 they approached games with much the same mentality and scored billions. It's the tactics of the opposition that changed, nothing more, and if the same happened to Germany everyone would be unfairly calling them boring.
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One thing about Spain is they were without a fit and on form Torres throughout the tournament, who often provides the cutting edge to their build up play. Although I still prefer the Germany style overall, had Torres been right we would have seen Spain score more goals and probably not be having this discussion.
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If by cautious you mean they don't just pointlessly give the ball away, then I'll take cautious any day of the week. My main criticism of Del Bosque is the slightly unnecessary playing of Xabi Alonso AND Sergio Busquets, but I can see that he didn't want to be counter-attacked. Spain were as attacking and direct as they could have been, and in Euro 2008 they approached games with much the same mentality and scored billions. It's the tactics of the opposition that changed, nothing more, and if the same happened to Germany everyone would be unfairly calling them boring.
It's bit highlighted that I was refering to when I said cautious.
Spain have by far the best squad at the competition, bar Brazil, and this is down to years of technical development which is something to be admired. But little men playing tip-tap football is just one aspect of the game to enjoy, not the be-all and end-all.
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you do get the feeling the majority of villa fans prefer the hussle/bussle style of play rather than a measured build-up retaining posession which is probably why mon is so popular.. always been that way unfortunately. me, i'd love us to play like spain but its not going to happen.
I'd like us to take on some aspects of the Spanish game, not all.
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you do get the feeling the majority of villa fans prefer the hussle/bussle style of play rather than a measured build-up retaining posession which is probably why mon is so popular.. always been that way unfortunately. me, i'd love us to play like spain but its not going to happen.
I'd like us to take on some aspects of the Spanish game, not all.
agreed.
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I don't think the Spanish played it sideways and backwards that much at all and I don't think they were boring either. They kept the ball brilliantly and played it forward whenever they could. The movement up front and in midfield was way better than anything you see with England or Villa. I'd love to see us try to play a bit more that way. They were like Arsenal but with a tougher defence.
Germany were more like us, only much better. They were fantastic on the break but I always thought they might struggle against a deeper lying defence, like they did against Spain. This is why I think the disallowed England goal was more important than some think - England had to commit players forward and it allowed the Germans to play to their biggest strength. As did the early goal and half time clean sheet against Argentina.
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I was also impressed with the German passing game. I know England and Argentina were!
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I’d like to see us blend some of the ball retention and movement into our play that Spain have in their approach, but retaining our pace and directness at the same time. I think that would essentially lead us to play like Man United at their very best.
Search for Norwich 1-3 Man United on Youtube for an example.
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the biggest irony for me is that if Villa adopted the Spanish model, the first player to sell would be a Spaniard !!
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the biggest irony for me is that if Villa adopted the Spanish model, the first player to sell would be a Spaniard !!
;-D
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The Spain model is based on the Barcelona model which would mean that we would need 10 outfoeld players who were comfortable on the ball.
I don't think we're close to seeing Collins or Dunne do a Pique-esque swivel and goal as seen in the CL semi-final against Inter, or either of them having the ball pinged into their feet and then in one movement pass it to another player. in fact Petrov aside i can't see any of our team having the technique to do that.
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If we tried to be exactly like them, we'd fail miserably and be a worse side for it. They play to their strengths and we play to ours. Although I would like to see us try and adopt their movement in midfield.
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To do that John we'd need to be a lot narrower and play with only one wide player, if any at all.
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Quite possibly, but I still think that elements of their game can be incorporated without losing our strengths, such as the width. The ability to move off the ball to a space where the man on the ball can pass to you is just as important in wide positions as it is central.
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Movement is the most important thing in the Spanish style of football, more important than width, than hard work, even than technique. Without movement you can forget all hopes of fluidity. Spain's remarkable ability to just never lose the ball is something we can't hope to match, but we won't be up against defences as well organised as the Portuguese or the Dutch, nor counter-attacks as potent as the Germans, so we can afford to be less than perfect in our imitation.
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I think we should adopt this Spanish model!
http://www.celebritywonder.com/vids/Esther_Canadas/xIYyLLF7qvs.html
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Let's just get Cuellar to teach the rest of the team how to do short, intricate passing then.
Let them learn from the master.
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The thing is, if MON were to adopt a spanish style of play, where does he/ the club start from?. For that style of play you obviously need players defenders,midfielders, attackers capable of understanding the movement needed, with the technical ability to instantly control the ball then pass it, and the footy nouse to see that killer pass/ through ball. How many of the current squad fit that criteria. And if he started bringing in 1 or 2 at a time is it a case of these players fitting the current style until their greater numbers dictate the style of play, or a case of villa current squad trying to adapt themselves, their mentality of playing the game to suit the newcomers?