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Author Topic: VAR  (Read 343719 times)

Offline purpletrousers

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Re: VAR
« Reply #750 on: October 21, 2019, 11:58:30 PM »
I’m another who contrasted the Rugby Saturday morning on TV to the footy Saturday afternoon.

Ruby: ref says he’s a bit uncertain about a couple of passes (crowd hear exactly his concerns, I presume on the PA, I know there is the option to pay to hear the ref for the whole match somehow/sometimes).

So the crowd know the uncertainty. VAR man selects and plays the two passes in question on the Big Screen so ref and *everyone* gets the same opportunity to review, with VAR man adding, for him both passes were fine. Ref on the pitch however -retaining authority- says, no, for him the 2nd looks a fwd pass and takes the big decision to disallow the try, everyone knows what the concern is, what the evidence is, what the decision is and why.

Contrast that to silent confusion and mystery, with the decision taken away from the man in charge, and lack of awareness as to when a decision is made. We don’t even know when the decision is made to be able to celebrate or not.

One key point that seems to be lost in the Ref on the pitch losing control of the decision, is that he has had an additional angle that cameras didn’t. His judgment should be supplemented by evidence (best angle/s available provided quickly to him). He simply has more data as he has his initial impression.

Not working at all at the moment, maybe it will in time, but as well as it’s execution it’s choice of application needs sorting too.
Embarrassing atm.

Offline The Edge

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Re: VAR
« Reply #751 on: October 22, 2019, 02:43:36 AM »
I don't like VAR.I don't like the whole principle and i don't believe it's as accurate as they'd have us believe when it comes to offsides given for tiny margins. It takes much more away from the game than it provides. I actually didn't celebrate Jack's goal as i thought it would be ruled out and i'd only just put myself through that particular mangle so it ruined the joy of celebration for myself and many others.The elephant in the room is the referees cartel. They are just using it to cover each others backs and now a few arrogant self serving twunts are holding all the power over the beautiful game. Their behaviour is a bit like they have been given the powers of life or death in the Colusseum akin to "The Emperor" and they're revelling in it. I would just bin it but if we must have it then i suggest the clubs insist on it being suspended. New referrees can be invited to join the ranks (after having their eyesight tested) and these could be trained up to use the system properly by an overseeing body of Premier league club officials, ex referees, ex players and League officials. Stringent codes put in place and each new referee to pass a test put in place to prove their competence. If this takes a year for instance then so be it. What's the rush? Once you have enough referees trained up to use the system properly boot out all the current clique and start again with a system designed and implemented by the right people.

Offline Ad@m

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Re: VAR
« Reply #752 on: October 22, 2019, 08:30:43 PM »
It seems so wrong, elongated and poor set up compared to rugby union TMO

I think football as a sport is really incompatible with the technology. Cricket and rugby both have natural breaks but the whole idea of football is it flows more or less continuously.

I don't buy that.

Cricket, yes, but rugby doesn't have any more breaks than football.  There are plenty of occasions the ball is in play for several minutes in rugby, whereas you'd be hard pushed to find the ball in play for more than 60 seconds in most football matches.

VAR could work but the absolute shambles we're currently witnessing is down to the amateur way it's being implemented.

Offline ChicagoLion

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Re: VAR
« Reply #753 on: October 22, 2019, 08:35:22 PM »
Agree with The Edge. Spot on.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: VAR
« Reply #754 on: October 22, 2019, 09:01:59 PM »
VAR should be used to determine if a ball crosses the line. Everything else needs to be a challenge from the manager. They get max 2 per game and would be limited to things like challenging offsides that led to goals or penalty claims either way. After that it’s things like violent play that should be left to a 4th official if the ref/assts have missed it. These incredibly narrow offsides and marginal infractions are killing the game.

Offline KevinGage

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Re: VAR
« Reply #755 on: October 22, 2019, 09:08:33 PM »
Maybe this isn't as haphazard as it looks.

Fans and pundits have been calling for video technology to help officials for years - probably much to the officials chagrin.  Now they're taking the opportunity to make it as unworkable as possible.

Ask most fans now if they want VAR or a return to the previous way of operating with the ref calling the shots and I'm sure most will go for the latter.


Offline Lastfootstamper

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Re: VAR
« Reply #756 on: October 22, 2019, 09:36:54 PM »
To those suggesting a finite number of coach's appeals, there's no way a manager/coach can have a decent view of any decision, contentious or otherwise, that happens more than 30 yards from our dugout. You can't see anything from down there. People four rows back in the bottom of the Trinity can see more.

I honestly don't get why our managers don't watch at least the first half from the Directors' box.

Offline themossman

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Re: VAR
« Reply #757 on: October 22, 2019, 09:44:46 PM »
It seems so wrong, elongated and poor set up compared to rugby union TMO

I think football as a sport is really incompatible with the technology. Cricket and rugby both have natural breaks but the whole idea of football is it flows more or less continuously.

I don't buy that.

Cricket, yes, but rugby doesn't have any more breaks than football.  There are plenty of occasions the ball is in play for several minutes in rugby, whereas you'd be hard pushed to find the ball in play for more than 60 seconds in most football matches.

VAR could work but the absolute shambles we're currently witnessing is down to the amateur way it's being implemented.

I see what you mean but in rugby the ref is integral to the game, constantly involved when the ball is in play, and has to pull play up frequently, whereas in football they only get involved in infringements, so it seems less jarring to have wait around for a TMO decision.

I dunno, there may be an element just being used to it in that setting and it having been integrated better - but it seems to me like the only way for VAR to be properly integrated in football is for the game to change in lots of subtle but important ways.

Offline paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #758 on: October 23, 2019, 08:09:58 AM »
The difference is that in rugby and cricket the officials wanted it as a tool to help them. In football they see it as a tool to replace them. Until that changes it stands no chance of being the system the game needs.

I do thijk rugby and football are more similar than many think though,  in terms of the tempo of the game. You'll get teams who slow things down and play for lineouts and scrums, but that's not dissimilar to how Pulis plays, for example.

Offline AsTallAsLions

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Re: VAR
« Reply #759 on: October 23, 2019, 08:17:38 AM »
It's also a slight myth to say that TMO doesn't interrupt the flow of a rugby game. It's just that this is now accepted as part and parcel of the game, because it does correct the ref and it does result in fairer decisions.

But that requires both the refs on the field and the TMO to have integrity. Too often this season we've seen bonkers subjective refereeing decisions go against us, and even if you think that was incompetence rather than bias or malice, you must then accept that there is a lack of integrity in Stockley Park where VAR has invariably failed to overturn the poor decisions of the referees. The behaviour of referees has a bang of 'all for one and one for all' off it, which you just wouldn't get in rugby officiating.

Offline themossman

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Re: VAR
« Reply #760 on: October 23, 2019, 08:26:17 AM »
I think you're spot on that the us and them mentality is a big part of the problem, hence the infuriating closing of ranks by the refs when they get it wrong. But then in fairness that’s also born of cultural differences between football vs rugby around respect for / behaviour towards the ref.

You can blame football refs for their mistakes but not their siege mentality.

Offline AllanW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #761 on: October 23, 2019, 10:19:15 AM »
You can blame football refs for their mistakes but not their siege mentality.

Yep. Another one here agreeing with the stance that paul_e and others have got to with VAR. The refs are the problem.

While I agree with almost all that themossman says I'd disagree with that last point; what their mentality indicates is that they do NOT have the best interests of the game at heart, only their own. With such a major element of the game at risk now (fairness, an even playing field) and with such a risky experiment being conducted and abused by them I CAN blame them for not taking this opportunity to do the right thing.

Yep. I blame them for being insular, blinkered, venal, egocentric cockwombles who deserve to be consigned to the nether reaches of hell for what they are doing to our game. With any luck the clubs, through their ownership of the PL, will take this chance to cut them down to useful size. For all our sakes.

Offline paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #762 on: October 23, 2019, 10:42:47 AM »
It's also a slight myth to say that TMO doesn't interrupt the flow of a rugby game. It's just that this is now accepted as part and parcel of the game, because it does correct the ref and it does result in fairer decisions.

But that requires both the refs on the field and the TMO to have integrity. Too often this season we've seen bonkers subjective refereeing decisions go against us, and even if you think that was incompetence rather than bias or malice, you must then accept that there is a lack of integrity in Stockley Park where VAR has invariably failed to overturn the poor decisions of the referees. The behaviour of referees has a bang of 'all for one and one for all' off it, which you just wouldn't get in rugby officiating.

Yep, the whole thing of not being able to celebrate a goal applies to tries in rugby, the difference is that it's clear why it's being checked and the fans are able to see and hear the process. A short delay that results in the correct decision and where the delay is easily understood is fine, this smoke and mirrors version of VAR offers nothing like that. Decisions are still wrong and the whole process happens in secret, on TV you have commentators guessing at what might be happening and in the ground you have nothing but a wait for an answer on the screen.

I think a big part of the problem is a lack of understanding of the need for VAR (from authorities) getting more decisions right, on the surface, looks to be the aim but what is actually needed is transparency on the reasons for a decision. I guarantee every single person who has watched football in the ground has an example of a decision that pissed them off at the time but when they saw the highlights later they realise it was actually the right decision, it happens all the time.

In the era of modern professional sport fans have access to huge amounts of footage and can see every incident for themselves from multiple angles. That has given rise to fans being able to easily spot mistakes from officials. By using tech rugby and cricket (also Tennis and many other sports) have shown they care about these mistakes. On the other hand football, currently, is burying it's head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge the mistakes exist.

Final point, there is a difference in respect for referees but that's not helped by the lack of trust fans have towards referees. Rugby isn't immune to fans losing trust in refs (look at the opinions towards Romain Poite and Ben Skeen in this world cup) but it's on an individual basis, in football almost all fans think that almost all refs are fucking shit and it will take a lot of work to turn that around.

Offline Risso

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Re: VAR
« Reply #763 on: October 23, 2019, 10:49:09 AM »
The other difference with rugby is that a try depends on the ball being grounded, which is quite often hard for the referee to see properly if there's 4 or 5 players on top of the person trying to score the try.  With football, that isn't the case and goal-line technology has easily eradicated the question of whether the ball has crossed the line or not.  On Saturday, Conor had clearly lashed the ball into the net.  The referee rightly gave the goal, and nobody was complaining about it.  For VAR to then overrule it, was both wrong, and also against the spirit of the so-called "high bar".

Offline AllanW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #764 on: October 23, 2019, 10:51:44 AM »
in football almost all fans think that almost all refs are fucking shit and it will take a lot of work to turn that around.

Yes but that's why it's worth doing. The game as a whole will benefit enormously.

 


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