Bullying

[eamonn]

Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.

MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.

But he was care-taking above his grade. Reverting to his old role (not taking into account these accusations) or similar was surely not illogical.

[kippaxvilla2]

There is an argument to say he sabotaged the company he worked for in the explanation given for the team he picked that night.

[kippaxvilla2]

Aston Villa caretaker manager Kevin MacDonald: "We came with a game plan but that went out of the window after two minutes. In the second half we created more chances, got a little bit of luck and were fighting, fighting, fighting. But Tottenham have very good players and if you give them a chance they'll score.

"I went with a team I thought could cause problems for Tottenham. It was the best Aston Villa side I thought could start."

[AV82EC]

I respect Conn as a journalist but I think he’s missed a trick in not making a distinction between the regimes running the club in the period referred to. Lets be honest what’s come out since Xia/DoF arrived and latterly since Bruce arrived seems to have got control of an utterly toxic and unruly Bodymoor Heath.

That said I’m in no way trying to excuse the club, total transparency on what happened should be a pre-requisite of what happened. From the report we seem to have a father implying Macdonald is a bit of a ****** and hasn’t been held to account and Villa have dismissed a few bad apples hoping the problem will have gone away. The FA and Premier League seem to want to put it all in the past as well.

An unedifying spectacle for the club.

[Dominic22]

Unfortunatly I think most of us here who have been around the club long enough and various people go through the academy could back-up what is said in the article. I say this not knowing if his behaviour has changed for the better in the last 5 or so years, but I suspect not.

I though he should have been dismissed many many years ago and I do think it is a stain on the academy that he is still there and lauded by steve bruce. I understand with some people if can be bitterness as being released etc and there is always those who will forgive these things as its Villa, and they want there family &  friends to succeed and are rightly very proud to have there kids in the club but  his attitude and way of dealing with kids over multiple years should not be condoned in any environment. 

[Chinchilla Bathhouse]

I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define.  It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable.  Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.

What disturbs me most is the idea that kids and their parents are afraid to speak up in case they should harm their chances of a career in football; it's exactly the story we've heard from the victims of sex abuse in football recently, and even though there's no suggestion that there's anything of that nature going on here, this story still highlights an abuse of power that creates exactly the sort of environment where that sort of thing is able to happen. Considering the club still has questions to answer regarding that enquiry I'd hope they're taking this latest report extremely seriously.

All of this tarnishes the club, and if there's the slightest proof that MacDonald has done what he's accused of then surely he has to go, regardless of his coaching ability or any previous twattery. As a club we can't be seen to be complicit, that would be disgraceful.  Bollocks to 'tough love' and 'banter', bullying in any form and on whatever level must not be tolerated. That should be the message we're sending out now.

[paul_e]

I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define.  It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable.  Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.

What disturbs me most is the idea that kids and their parents are afraid to speak up in case they should harm their chances of a career in football; it's exactly the story we've heard from the victims of sex abuse in football recently, and even though there's no suggestion that there's anything of that nature going on here, this story still highlights an abuse of power that creates exactly the sort of environment where that sort of thing is able to happen. Considering the club still has questions to answer regarding that enquiry I'd hope they're taking this latest report extremely seriously.

All of this tarnishes the club, and if there's the slightest proof that MacDonald has done what he's accused of then surely he has to go, regardless of his coaching ability or any previous twattery. As a club we can't be seen to be complicit, that would be disgraceful.  Bollocks to 'tough love' and 'banter', bullying in any form and on whatever level must not be tolerated. That should be the message we're sending out now.

Given the bold bit and the following from the article:

The father was dissatisfied with the club’s desultory response, so he complained to the Premier League. It commissioned an independent review, whose conclusions were communicated to the father by letter. It said: “There is evidence of bullying, aggressive behaviour, and unacceptable language by Mr MacDonald.”

The league told the father it had insisted on “sweeping and rigorous measures to improve practice and procedure to ensure academy player welfare is prioritised” at Villa. MacDonald was referred to the Football Association for investigation into whether he should continue to work with young footballers or be sanctioned.

I'd suggest that the slightest proof you mentioned is either not there, is insufficient or that the review hasn't been finished yet and this report is coming in the middle of the story.  I think the last is pretty unlikely after 10 months but it is a possibility.

I don't know which of these is true but if the club, the premier league review and the FA investigation have all completed (as per the first 2 cases) and found no grounds to sack him then we can't use this to send any sort of message and we need to just accept that his side of the story is is compelling enough to not be disregarded.

Oh, and just to clarify I don't like him at all and would have happily seen him dumped last summer as part of the review that Round supposedly completed.

[ciggiesnbeer]

That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?

[saunders_heroes]

That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?

A payout?

[Chinchilla Bathhouse]

That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?

Thing is, Ciggies, that is exactly what would happen to most of us if we were caught engaging in aggressive behaviour, verbal abuse and bullying in the workplace, and rightly so. I'd be very interested to know why the club felt the evidence from those investigations didn't warrant a sacking, and if so what they did warrant. A stern talking to? A written warning? They might consider that resolved, many wouldn't.  In the current climate I think the father has every right to be asking questions, and I think we should be too. If the answers were given the article wouldn't be one-sided - in fact, there'd probably be no article.

[Ian.]

Considering how much change we’ve had throughout the whole club it’s surprising he’s still in a job anyway, adding this to the equation makes that even more surprising.

[SheffieldVillain]

That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?

Thing is, Ciggies, that is exactly what would happen to most of us if we were caught engaging in aggressive behaviour, verbal abuse and bullying in the workplace, and rightly so. I'd be very interested to know why the club felt the evidence from those investigations didn't warrant a sacking, and if so what they did warrant. A stern talking to? A written warning? They might consider that resolved, many wouldn't.  In the current climate I think the father has every right to be asking questions, and I think we should be too. If the answers were given the article wouldn't be one-sided - in fact, there'd probably be no article.

If you're going to compare this to what would happen to most of us / normal jobs etc, then shouldn't the same right to have a HR procedure take place within the company not in the media/in public apply as it would do with most of us? Seems like double standards to me.

[Ad@m]

I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define.  It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable.  Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.

Sorry, but I don't agree.

The issue is where you draw the line between "banter" and bullying and it'll be in a different place for every individual.

Anyone who's played football will have been told they've got a 50 pence head or two left feet or whatever and you've probably had a good chuckle about it with your team mates.  If you keep being told you've got a 50p head or two left feet eventually it'll become bullying.  But the point it crosses from banter to bullying will depend on the character of the person it's directed at.

What's important is that the people in charge recognise that it's different for different people and stop it before it crosses the line.  Based on one article alone I don't see how any of us can draw any conclusions on this.

[ciggiesnbeer]

That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?

Thing is, Ciggies, that is exactly what would happen to most of us if we were caught engaging in aggressive behaviour, verbal abuse and bullying in the workplace, and rightly so. I'd be very interested to know why the club felt the evidence from those investigations didn't warrant a sacking, and if so what they did warrant. A stern talking to? A written warning? They might consider that resolved, many wouldn't.  In the current climate I think the father has every right to be asking questions, and I think we should be too. If the answers were given the article wouldn't be one-sided - in fact, there'd probably be no article.

Well we have no idea what the specific allegations are. They are pretty broad. If for example at work in a meeting I said to a new employee who had just crashed the software because of sloppy work "Oh for fucks sake, you HAVE to check your code with your supervisor before pushing to staging!" then I would be out of line and deserve a talking to, but nothing more. If on the other hand I said "You are a useless fucking little twat why are you even here?" then I should be fired. One is aggressive over the line behaviour that needs to be changed, the other is obviously unacceptable and grounds for dismissal.*

Everyone who has looked at this seems to put the case into the first category. The father seems to be the only one with a different opinion, note he stands completely alone here. No other parents have any problem whatsoever.

I mean should unsubstantiated allegations cause someone to lose their job? To be clear I have wanted Kmac gone for years, because I thought he did an appalling job when interim manager. But I don't think he should be sacked just because some kids father didn't like the handling of a HR issue.


*I wouldn't say either obviously, but as an example.

[Risso]

He clearly has acted inappropriately:

"There is evidence of bullying, aggressive behaviour, and unacceptable language by Mr MacDonald."  Whether the club chooses to sack him because of it, is entirely up to them though.