Domestic & European Rugby 2017-18

[Gareth]

Looks like the two Irish v Worcester games willl be major factors in who goes down already.  Can't see anyone else being in the shake up. 

I agree and from what I've seen I suspect Irish will get the better of them.  Irish have snuck a win already and I think they might get couple more during the international windows because they have some very dangerous ball carriers (Lewington won't be there next season and I suspect he'll make the England squad before long and they have Cokanasiga to come back and he's an absolute monster).  I honestly don't see Worcester winning a game this year, they look a long way short of the quality needed for this league.

I tend to agree however for the 3rd year running it looks like Worcester are relying on the arrival of Houggard to transform the back line.  Not getting a decent 10 is looking more and more stupid by the defeat.

Not looked at the fixture list to see if there is Premiership fixtures autumn int / 6 nations weekends, they have traditionally been weekends the bottom teams can get a shock result or two :-)

[paul_e]

Looks like the two Irish v Worcester games willl be major factors in who goes down already.  Can't see anyone else being in the shake up. 

I agree and from what I've seen I suspect Irish will get the better of them.  Irish have snuck a win already and I think they might get couple more during the international windows because they have some very dangerous ball carriers (Lewington won't be there next season and I suspect he'll make the England squad before long and they have Cokanasiga to come back and he's an absolute monster).  I honestly don't see Worcester winning a game this year, they look a long way short of the quality needed for this league.

I tend to agree however for the 3rd year running it looks like Worcester are relying on the arrival of Houggard to transform the back line.  Not getting a decent 10 is looking more and more stupid by the defeat.

Not looked at the fixture list to see if there is Premiership fixtures autumn int / 6 nations weekends, they have traditionally been weekends the bottom teams can get a shock result or two :-)

Yep, I have family with season tickets there and they're hoping things tick once they can get Hougaard, Mills and T'eo together.

[cheltenhamlion]

Gloucester were absolutely dire on Friday.

[Dante Lavelli]

Saracens v Wasps today.  It should be cracking game.
It's been a great season so far with no team looking significantly better than the others (saracens ominously quite/quietly efficient).

[paul_e]

Gloucester were absolutely dire on Friday.

But much improved yesterday.

[paul_e]

Saracens v Wasps today.  It should be cracking game.
It's been a great season so far with no team looking significantly better than the others (saracens ominously quite/quietly efficient).

I agree, if you assume relegation is a playoff between Irish and Worcester the other 10 teams are all capable of beating each other and will all at least have an aim of the champions cup if not the play offs.  Gloucester, Quins and Sale have all been a bit hit and miss but when they click the quality is there and the others all look well in the mix for the top 4 already.  It's one of the best starts to a season we've seen and I just hope the european games and then the international break don't kill the momentum.

[Dante Lavelli]

Saracens v Wasps today.  It should be cracking game.
It's been a great season so far with no team looking significantly better than the others (saracens ominously quite/quietly efficient).

I agree, if you assume relegation is a playoff between Irish and Worcester the other 10 teams are all capable of beating each other and will all at least have an aim of the champions cup if not the play offs.  Gloucester, Quins and Sale have all been a bit hit and miss but when they click the quality is there and the others all look well in the mix for the top 4 already.  It's one of the best starts to a season we've seen and I just hope the european games and then the international break don't kill the momentum.

A coach (Dai Jones?) was quoted saying that the new rules mean that there are 50+ more hits per game resulting in more injuries.  If so, the comparatively competitive nature of the aviva premier could hit england hard(er) over the duration of a season.  Whilst this would be devastating for football, it seems like a bonus for rugby as players like Marcus Smith a forced to play key roles.  It'd be nice if the clubs view it this way and do not seek insurance of more solid overseas journeymen.

[Dante Lavelli]

Ouch.  Saracens thump wasps 38-19.  Considering they did similar to the Saints it looks ominous.

[paul_e]

Ouch.  Saracens thump wasps 38-19.  Considering they did similar to the Saints it looks ominous.

In both cases, and with everything else that's happened so far this year, I'm going with a fence sitting yes and no.

For starters Wasps are desperately poor against an aggressive defence right now.  Robson, Cipriani and Gopperth at 9, 10 and 12 gave them unpredictability and meant teams had to be cautious but because of injuries 2-3 of them have been missing from pretty much every game so far, from the 15 at least, Today it was just Robson and only from the bench and Sarries just bullied them and waited for them to kick away possession.  On top of that they're also missing a lot of the big ball carriers in the pack, so they don't even have the options to come from their either.  That meant that Sarries real strength was targeted directly at the biggest weakness for Wasps, it looked like a mismatch all along, I'm surprised it wasn't a bigger win in truth.

On top of that Wasps scored 19 points and were pretty unlucky to have the one chalked off for a forward pass which would've left them with a realistic chance of a try scoring bonus point, in the Saints game you mentioned they also leaked 3 tries and were lucky to not give away more (saints butchered a couple of decent chances and sarries saved one in the corner as well).  That's a bit of a weakness and they have conceded points much more freely this year than for the last 3-4 seasons.

What's concerning is that they seem to have stepped up their ability to punish mistakes and their line out is better this season than I've seen before.

So the short version is that I honestly don't know what to think with them just yet.

The injuries thing will be an interesting one to watch out for but the wage cap not changing means teams are going to have to rely on their young players, most of the clubs have reduced the size of their squads over the last 2-3 years from up near 50 in some cases to more like 40 now.

[cheltenhamlion]

Gloucester were absolutely dire on Friday.

But much improved yesterday.

Very good. Again shows the difference that Trinder makes.

[Dante Lavelli]

The injuries thing will be an interesting one to watch out for but the wage cap not changing means teams are going to have to rely on their young players, most of the clubs have reduced the size of their squads over the last 2-3 years from up near 50 in some cases to more like 40 now.

[Regardless of what I said earlier] I think that the injuries will have greater impact on the European games as the Celts can rest players beforehand.  therefore I'm predicting that only one english team gets to the semis.

[Dante Lavelli]

Just watched Saints v Saracens.  Jeeze, Farrell has come on as a player.  A way more creative player that I ever imagined he would become.

[paul_e]

Just watched Saints v Saracens.  Jeeze, Farrell has come on as a player.  A way more creative player that I ever imagined he would become.

Indeed, I watched until the last 10 minutes or so but it was painful as a saints fan.  Lawes was world class, despite them taking an absolute battering he deserves credit, 7 more forwards playing at that level and it'd be a different game.

Back to the game Saints suffered from the same problem as Villa did this weekend which was trying to let the opposition play in front of them but not accounting for the moments of brilliance which could carve them up if they just defended with no real threat o taking control of the game.  Having sarries do it to you is less embarrassing though.

That said I really don't like the fact that the sarries game is built around being on the edge of the laws all the time.  Take the scrum, they'd bind properly but once the ball was in Mako shifted to binding on the arm at every scrum, which pulled Brookes down and saw the other side wheel round and the ref just gave them penalties or let it play out. Even when he stood on that side and was looking at it he didn't seem to understand what effect the shift in bind was having.

Then there's repeated occurrences of a player joining the tackle before it's been completed so he can shift round and block the saints support runners but never getting pinged for not rolling away/not releasing.  These are the same tricks the All Blacks have used for years and that have seen law changes to address but unless refs uphold those laws it has no effect.

I'm also a bit surprised that no one wanted to take another look at the 4th try, there was a definite hint of truck and trailer about it, with the maul splitting into 2 'pods' and the first clearing defenders out so they had an easy score, if they did stay bound it was at arms length and was worth checking.

[aev]

Saracens are utterly ruthless, and I think most successful teams play on the edge of the laws.

I just read that Stade Francais lost in Siberia!

[paul_e]

Saracens are utterly ruthless, and I think most successful teams play on the edge of the laws.

I just read that Stade Francais lost in Siberia!

I agree but for me sarries and the all blacks (and Leinster for that matter) cross the line into blatant cheating a little too often but because of the way they do it they carry the ref along with them, like the scrum thing I mentioned above, create the idea in the mind of the ref that the opposition are trying to wheel it then start wheeling it yourself and you'll get the decisions more often than not.