Villa Park: a managerial graveyard?

[curiousorange]

It's pretty relative as far as I can tell. Most fans assume their club could and should be doing better. The other day I was talking to a colleague who is a Liverpool fan, and who was bitching about Klopp. His opinion was that if 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' were not Top Four at the end of the season he'd be given the flick. I had to try very hard not to laugh in his face. Or then there's the Arsenal fans who think that getting rid of Wenger is the solution rather than the lightning route to becoming bitter also-rans again.

But when all's said and done, Villa is my club and there is no sane reason why we aren't doing better with our budget, reputation and fan base. It's got nothing to do with curses and everything to do with mentality. The managers we get seem to treat the job as a custodian and not as a coach. They have little desire to create an identity with the way we play football. The last manager we had who didn't give a flying fuck about what had come before him was Martin O'Neill and we haven't had a man who was so convinced of his own ability since. You could argue Tim Sherwood did but as he didn't have the brains to back up the bullshit that's not a great comparison. We'll know we've found the right man when they stop going on about what a massive club this is and start talking about how big this club could be.

[Mister E]

It's pretty relative as far as I can tell. Most fans assume their club could and should be doing better. The other day I was talking to a colleague who is a Liverpool fan, and who was bitching about Klopp. His opinion was that if 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' were not Top Four at the end of the season he'd be given the flick. I had to try very hard not to laugh in his face. Or then there's the Arsenal fans who think that getting rid of Wenger is the solution rather than the lightning route to becoming bitter also-rans again.

But when all's said and done, Villa is my club and there is no sane reason why we aren't doing better with our budget, reputation and fan base. It's got nothing to do with curses and everything to do with mentality. The managers we get seem to treat the job as a custodian and not as a coach. They have little desire to create an identity with the way we play football. The last manager we had who didn't give a flying fuck about what had come before him was Martin O'Neill and we haven't had a man who was so convinced of his own ability since. You could argue Tim Sherwood did but as he didn't have the brains to back up the bullshit that's not a great comparison. We'll know we've found the right man when they stop going on about what a massive club this is and start talking about how big this club could be.

Great post, CO. By the way, what you describe above about the manager brought to mind the Cowley borthers and the eloquence and class with which they've conducted themselves since Saturday.
What else, over and above hiring a quality manager?

[Simon Page]

Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?

We appear to be going through a period where nothing works as a unit - either the board is poor, or the manager, or both. It's happened before and ended up in Division Three. But since then we were lucky/good enough to chance upon a board and manager working coherently enough times to save us from a dire situation or give us something to cheer. Until now.

Since MON left, we haven't had the combination of right manager and right board. Houllier seems to be being rewritten as the man who would have taken us forward, but I couldn't see it then and can't now. It was unlikely to happen under post-O'Neill Lerner anyway. McLeish, Lambert and Sherwood weren't truly confident enough in their own abilities and the board was all over the shop. Garde was arguably the oddest appointment in our history and left to flounder. RDM and Bruce seem to be without a plan or not ballsy enough to just stick to their own course.

Villa is a big job - hardly anyone goes on to bigger or better things from here and it's usually the last major job of a career. Equally, most managers have a shelf life. I think football pundits sometimes forget Ferguson was an anomaly, not the norm. But successful managers have both a decent board behind them and a certainty in their own ability that goes beyond talking a good game and manifests itself in consistent decision making. I'd have thought Bruce would have that confidence but his actions suggest he is throwing the dice and hoping.

[preston28]

Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?

We have burned through a veritable Who's Who of managers since the petulant departure of MON. Bruce arrived with a good record at Hull and a reputation of being pragmatically effective. Lambert - having had a torrid time - once again seems to be recovering the lustre he developed at Colchester and Naarrich.
So, what is it about B6 that apparently puts the hex on managers?

No I don't think it is. We have appointed good(ish) managers but I think it the lack of support and vision from the owner and board and poor purchases in the transfer market that have hampered the development of the team.  that has been made worse by too frequent managerial changes so they have to work with a team they necessarily wouldn't have built. Even our new owner personally appointed RDM (look at the Blues and their owners appointing Zola) on the basis of a EC win. His purchases and tactics were appalling and yeta agin we are trying to make good after the bad.

Give us some time with a manager and some stability and we'll come good again and be back in the big time but after years of being run down by Lerner we will have to take time to re-build!

[curiousorange]

The successful Villa manager should never be thinking about where he can go from here, he should be thinking he'll be in the job until he retires. Lose the mentality of being a stepping-stone and we will improve.

[Nunkin1965]

It's pretty relative as far as I can tell. Most fans assume their club could and should be doing better. The other day I was talking to a colleague who is a Liverpool fan, and who was bitching about Klopp. His opinion was that if 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' were not Top Four at the end of the season he'd be given the flick. I had to try very hard not to laugh in his face. Or then there's the Arsenal fans who think that getting rid of Wenger is the solution rather than the lightning route to becoming bitter also-rans again.

But when all's said and done, Villa is my club and there is no sane reason why we aren't doing better with our budget, reputation and fan base. It's got nothing to do with curses and everything to do with mentality. The managers we get seem to treat the job as a custodian and not as a coach. They have little desire to create an identity with the way we play football. The last manager we had who didn't give a flying fuck about what had come before him was Martin O'Neill and we haven't had a man who was so convinced of his own ability since. You could argue Tim Sherwood did but as he didn't have the brains to back up the bullshit that's not a great comparison. We'll know we've found the right man when they stop going on about what a massive club this is and start talking about how big this club could be.

Great post. Fans are never happy.

I remember driving back from out League Cup Final defeat to Man U (Seems decades ago now) and some supporter morning about us being 1 dimensional.

Fuck me, we're not even 0 dimensional now!

I'm also sick of massive club, sleeping giant etc.....

Why can't somebody who manages or plays step forward and grab this team by the bollocks?

[mr underhill]

because they haven't got any to grab hold of, just shrivelled walnuts

[oldhill_avfc]

My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome.  Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.

There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought.  Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.

So it has become with us.  We have become a managerial cash cow.  Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans.  Get rich.  Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in.  Look worried.  Shuffle the deck.  Get the sack.  Get even richer.  Ghost write My Villa Hell.  Repeat.

We need a manager with a brain.  We need above all an intelligent, thinking man.  I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.

It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality.  It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past.  Negativity.  The fear of losing.

A lot of what you've said is true, especially the safe pair of hands mentality.

However, while having a brain is always useful, I'd say that we need a manager with ambition, drive, personality, may be arrogance even. 

The best managers always have something to prove and want to win something.  When did we last have a manager who (with any credibility) was here to win trophies or achieve success that would improve their status in the footballing world - and possibly take  them on to the next level?

Little?
Atkinson?

We've played it safe and had too many who're ok with with a mediocre career, treading water, having another payday or emulating 'success' at other clubs such as a mid table finish or avoiding relegation.

[Mister E]

My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome.  Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.

There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought.  Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.

So it has become with us.  We have become a managerial cash cow.  Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans.  Get rich.  Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in.  Look worried.  Shuffle the deck.  Get the sack.  Get even richer.  Ghost write My Villa Hell.  Repeat.

We need a manager with a brain.  We need above all an intelligent, thinking man.  I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.

It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality.  It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past.  Negativity.  The fear of losing.

A lot of what you've said is true, especially the safe pair of hands mentality.

However, while having a brain is always useful, I'd say that we need a manager with ambition, drive, personality, may be arrogance even. 

The best managers always have something to prove and want to win something.  When did we last have a manager who (with any credibility) was here to win trophies or achieve success that would improve their status in the footballing world - and possibly take  them on to the next level?

Little?
Atkinson?

We've played it safe and had too many who're ok with with a mediocre career, treading water, having another payday or emulating 'success' at other clubs such as a mid table finish or avoiding relegation.

Do you not think that Bruce has ambition?  - after all, do a decent job with us and he might have had a shot at the England job: a great way for him personally to have finished his career.

[VillaAlways]

Not that I want Bruce sacked yet but the next time we get a new manager he should only be given a 12 month rolling contract. 

I thought he was on a 12 month rolling contract

[Boz]

Not that I want Bruce sacked yet but the next time we get a new manager he should only be given a 12 month rolling contract.

If he hasn't gone soon, it'll be too late and another relegation, if he hasn't got at least six points in the next three games

[oldhill_avfc]

My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome.  Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.

There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought.  Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.

So it has become with us.  We have become a managerial cash cow.  Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans.  Get rich.  Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in.  Look worried.  Shuffle the deck.  Get the sack.  Get even richer.  Ghost write My Villa Hell.  Repeat.

We need a manager with a brain.  We need above all an intelligent, thinking man.  I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.

It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality.  It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past.  Negativity.  The fear of losing.

A lot of what you've said is true, especially the safe pair of hands mentality.

However, while having a brain is always useful, I'd say that we need a manager with ambition, drive, personality, may be arrogance even. 

The best managers always have something to prove and want to win something.  When did we last have a manager who (with any credibility) was here to win trophies or achieve success that would improve their status in the footballing world - and possibly take  them on to the next level?

Little?
Atkinson?

We've played it safe and had too many who're ok with with a mediocre career, treading water, having another payday or emulating 'success' at other clubs such as a mid table finish or avoiding relegation.

Do you not think that Bruce has ambition?  - after all, do a decent job with us and he might have had a shot at the England job: a great way for him personally to have finished his career.

You've kind of summed it up already in your own words - 'do a decent job'.

Look I like him - he seems a decent honest type of bloke.

I would suggest (on both sides) - the expectation was for a horses for courses type of job - get us up and possibly re-establish ourselves in the division.   He's not the sort who'd be knocking down the boardroom door demanding funding for players or else he's out of here to manage a top 6 team.

[ClaretAndBlueBlood]

We just appoint poor managers, Lambert isn't suudenly a good manager, the dogheads cant stand him, Sherwoods currently in some weird job at Swindon, McCleish and garde out of work??

The only way to stop threads like this is to flex our muscles and appoint a top manager, if we can throw £20m plus, including the contract, at the likes of McCormack then we have the financial resources to go out and get a top boss.

we pay way over the odds for the calibre of managers we appoint. I think I heard that  McLeish was the 15th highest paid manager in the world when he was appointed. IN THE FUCKING WORLD

well, if Wenger is leaving the arse, I am sure he will get a gig at a major club. But why not offer him the chance to resurrect us. Probably a long shot but might just appeal to his egotistical side

[mr underhill]

let's go the whole hog and tempt SAF back from the racecourse and endless rounds of prawn sandwiches

[CT Villan]

Since Houllier, we have appointed average to below-average managers and bought average to below-average players. MON was successful, albeit within an illusionary bubble, because we bought top quality players. Players like this are driven, self-motivated and high achievers - even lower grade players will improve being around professionals like this. In addition, the weight of expectation at Villa will soon take a toll on those managers that are not equipped to handle the pressure. I see Bruce as an average manager at best, one that might be good enough at your typical Championship or smaller PL club but he is floundering at Villa.

As has already been said here, we need a manager who has been successful at a 'big' club or was a national team coach for a highly rated country, ie. not Bob Bradley. Obviously, we could get someone like Arsene Wenger and there is still no guarantee of success, but you have increased the probability of success enormously.