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Author Topic: Bruce Sacked at last (now official)  (Read 2113450 times)

Offline brontebilly

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12435 on: April 23, 2018, 10:49:01 PM »
For me personally that's nothing like accurate. Going with Bruce was an attempt at pragmatism, an 'ends justify the means' appointment but that's not what I wanted.

I wanted something like the Villa engine but with a manager who's job was to find a handful of players to help bring the U23s through and build a squad of young-ish(18-28), fit and technically proficient players, with a bit of pace about them. Something very similar to what Wolves have done in fact.  My worry with Bruce from the very beginning was that he'd build a squad for today and not really think about tomorrow very much, everything that's happened since he arrived has reinforced my view that he's not given a thought to next season at all.

Some will say that's his job and the right thing to do but all it actually does is create a cycle of constant churn where you're seeing 6-7 players in and out every summer and you're always talking about the squad needing to gel, etc.  Good sides don't do that.  One of Fergie's best traits was that he very rarely got in players for the sake of it, if there was a kid who could do a job he'd let them try even if there were better options on the market because it meant the team was always slowly adapting rather than major transition every year.

Can hardly blame Bruce for thinking short term, I suspect his brief is simple, get us back to the top division by whatever means necessary.

As I and many suspected last summer, Bruce's transfer dealings are a lot better when he is forced to make ends meet.

Given the above, if the playoffs dont go well, then it might be best if we did stick with Bruce as budget is bound to be very limited next season.

The change from RDM to Bruce was a train wreck in terms of player turnover, I dont think we can afford that again

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12436 on: April 24, 2018, 12:07:35 AM »
For me personally that's nothing like accurate. Going with Bruce was an attempt at pragmatism, an 'ends justify the means' appointment but that's not what I wanted.

I wanted something like the Villa engine but with a manager who's job was to find a handful of players to help bring the U23s through and build a squad of young-ish(18-28), fit and technically proficient players, with a bit of pace about them. Something very similar to what Wolves have done in fact.  My worry with Bruce from the very beginning was that he'd build a squad for today and not really think about tomorrow very much, everything that's happened since he arrived has reinforced my view that he's not given a thought to next season at all.

Some will say that's his job and the right thing to do but all it actually does is create a cycle of constant churn where you're seeing 6-7 players in and out every summer and you're always talking about the squad needing to gel, etc.  Good sides don't do that.  One of Fergie's best traits was that he very rarely got in players for the sake of it, if there was a kid who could do a job he'd let them try even if there were better options on the market because it meant the team was always slowly adapting rather than major transition every year.

I agree with a lot of that Paul, but the overriding attitude at the club over the past couple of seasons has been promotion at all costs.  Ideally, we might have been able to implement a longer term plan when we went down and brought through a core of young players who could have reinvigorated the club and driven it forward.  Not sure how much of the fanbase would have welcomed that approach though and the financial disparity between the top flight and the Championship means you really have to try and get up as quickly as possible.

Offline Matt Collins

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12437 on: April 24, 2018, 07:52:13 AM »
I think the owners’ plans in the summer were to have a smaller core squad, that would have seen more reliance on some of the younger players, especially Green, RHM, maybe a couple of the others. But we couldn’t shift some players, others like Adomah played their way in, and Bruce didn’t rotate as much as he might have

I’m sure that would be the plan next year if we don’t go up. But we might regret not having blooded some of the kids a little more - though injuries and fitness didn’t help with green and RHM

Online ChicagoLion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12438 on: April 24, 2018, 06:47:53 PM »
Even when the youngsters are available and playing well, Bruce does not play them. He is not known for developing players on, which is another good reason to get rid.
Look how many changes he made to the team against Fulham rather than pick Ohare.
He is a safety first backs against the wall Manager with little style or imagination.




Offline sickbeggar

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12439 on: April 25, 2018, 12:29:22 AM »
Bottom line is we employed a guy to get us promoted quickly and make no mistake that was his reason for getting the job in the first place, rather than employing someone to change the whole footballing culture at the club or build over time. If we don't go up via the play offs there is basically no reason to keep him, because next May is not getting us up quickly. If we had built a team on youngsters and young signings playing superb football then you could probably say there would be a decent reasons  for tearing up his original instructions and keeping him to see how it pans out. As it is with a team full of loans and older players what reason is there to keep him? What the hell can someone else do worse? Not get us promoted again?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 12:46:07 AM by sickbeggar »

Offline Matt Collins

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12440 on: April 25, 2018, 06:46:06 AM »
Even when the youngsters are available and playing well, Bruce does not play them. He is not known for developing players on, which is another good reason to get rid.
Look how many changes he made to the team against Fulham rather than pick Ohare.
He is a safety first backs against the wall Manager with little style or imagination.


Maguire - England international
Henderson - England international
Robertson - best left back in the league this season
Clucas - £16m transfer

Who gave these players their debut?

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12441 on: April 25, 2018, 07:04:40 AM »
Bruce went about getting us up in the same way he has with other clubs and it looks as if we were a couple of wins from going up automatically and we've still got the play offs to come. He's stuck to what's worked for him before and it could well pay off again.

Online Dave

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12442 on: April 25, 2018, 09:05:52 AM »
Even when the youngsters are available and playing well, Bruce does not play them. He is not known for developing players on, which is another good reason to get rid.
Look how many changes he made to the team against Fulham rather than pick Ohare.
He is a safety first backs against the wall Manager with little style or imagination.


Maguire - England international
Henderson - England international
Robertson - best left back in the league this season
Clucas - £16m transfer

Who gave these players their debut?

After a bit of Wikipediaing, Micky Adams, Roy Keane, Gardner Speirs and Chris Sutton.

What do I win?

Offline AsTallAsLions

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12443 on: April 25, 2018, 09:14:24 AM »
Bruce went about getting us up in the same way he has with other clubs and it looks as if we were a couple of wins from going up automatically and we've still got the play offs to come. He's stuck to what's worked for him before and it could well pay off again.

I think the problem he's come up against is that the Championship is changing. Yes there are still the Cardiffs lumping it forward and kicking people about the pitch - and that can clearly still be quite effective - but then there's Wolves, Fulham, even the likes of Brentford playing really good football (last year Huddersfield et al). Maybe in 2014 or whenever, we'd have stormed this league... but in the games Bruce has lost, which we should have won 'on paper', he's been out-thought by managers and teams who have simply looked an awful lot smarter.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12444 on: April 25, 2018, 11:34:09 AM »
He has given youth players a go at other clubs....when SHA went up in 2002 an 18 year old scored the winning penalty.

As said before he played Henderson at Sunderland when he was 19.

Issue here is the short term nature of it. He knew when he was appointed he had 18 months to get us up and has signed accordingly, going for tried and tested players he's worked with before like AEM and Snodgrass.

If he knew he had 3-4 years like he did at SHA and Hull I'm sure he'd have signed differently.

Offline AsTallAsLions

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12445 on: April 25, 2018, 11:45:18 AM »
He has given youth players a go at other clubs....when SHA went up in 2002 an 18 year old scored the winning penalty.

As said before he played Henderson at Sunderland when he was 19.

Issue here is the short term nature of it. He knew when he was appointed he had 18 months to get us up and has signed accordingly, going for tried and tested players he's worked with before like AEM and Snodgrass.

If he knew he had 3-4 years like he did at SHA and Hull I'm sure he'd have signed differently.

Well, not really, no. In Bruce's first window he splurged on Taylor, Hogan, Lansbury, Hourihane, Thor - none of whom he'd ever worked with before. You couldn't call any of them spring chickens but they aren't pensioners either... So the truth of it is he came in, spent a fortune on distinctly average players somewhere in the middle of their careers, and then when they'd failed to help him achieve promotion and we'd run afoul of FFP rules, he had to resort to signing the likes that you've mentioned.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12446 on: April 25, 2018, 11:53:45 AM »
He has given youth players a go at other clubs....when SHA went up in 2002 an 18 year old scored the winning penalty.

As said before he played Henderson at Sunderland when he was 19.

Issue here is the short term nature of it. He knew when he was appointed he had 18 months to get us up and has signed accordingly, going for tried and tested players he's worked with before like AEM and Snodgrass.

If he knew he had 3-4 years like he did at SHA and Hull I'm sure he'd have signed differently.

Well, not really, no. In Bruce's first window he splurged on Taylor, Hogan, Lansbury, Hourihane, Thor - none of whom he'd ever worked with before. You couldn't call any of them spring chickens but they aren't pensioners either... So the truth of it is he came in, spent a fortune on distinctly average players somewhere in the middle of their careers, and then when they'd failed to help him achieve promotion and we'd run afoul of FFP rules, he had to resort to signing the likes that you've mentioned.

Last summer, tried and tested. Snodgrass, El-mohamady, John Terry. Then Grabban in January who is proven 20 goal a season striker at this level.

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12447 on: April 25, 2018, 12:30:22 PM »
He has given youth players a go at other clubs....when SHA went up in 2002 an 18 year old scored the winning penalty.

As said before he played Henderson at Sunderland when he was 19.

Issue here is the short term nature of it. He knew when he was appointed he had 18 months to get us up and has signed accordingly, going for tried and tested players he's worked with before like AEM and Snodgrass.

If he knew he had 3-4 years like he did at SHA and Hull I'm sure he'd have signed differently.

Well, not really, no. In Bruce's first window he splurged on Taylor, Hogan, Lansbury, Hourihane, Thor - none of whom he'd ever worked with before. You couldn't call any of them spring chickens but they aren't pensioners either... So the truth of it is he came in, spent a fortune on distinctly average players somewhere in the middle of their careers, and then when they'd failed to help him achieve promotion and we'd run afoul of FFP rules, he had to resort to signing the likes that you've mentioned.

Last summer, tried and tested. Snodgrass, El-mohamady, John Terry. Then (b]Grabban in January who is proven 20 goal a season striker at this level.[/b]

Sorry but I have to argue the point there, He's scored 20 in a season twice (will be 3 times if he scores again) and 1 of those was in league 2. He's absolutely not a proven 20 goal a season striker, he's a player who came to us in good form and has adapted brilliantly since he arrived.

Aside from that this summer we'll lose, from the current squad:

Johnstone, Hutton, Samba, Tuanzebe, Onomah, Snodgrass, Grabban (I won't include Gabby)

Then you have Terry, Whelan and Jedinak all well into retirement territory.

Like it or not this will be a summer of churn, even if don't sell a single player, and it's because of his choices last summer.

Offline john e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12448 on: April 25, 2018, 12:36:12 PM »
Bruce went about getting us up in the same way he has with other clubs and it looks as if we were a couple of wins from going up automatically and we've still got the play offs to come. He's stuck to what's worked for him before and it could well pay off again.

can’t argue with any of that

Online Monty

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #12449 on: April 25, 2018, 12:38:56 PM »
It might be harsh but I'm very unsure he's the right man for whichever job is required next season. Ship steadied, a season this club should regard as a bare minimum achieved, some positives on the players such as Jack, but the style definitely still has a muddle-along feel, and I think we'll need much more coherence and identity next year - either to kick on in the Premier League, or to get promotion without spending what we have so far.

 


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