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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 318004 times)

Offline chrisw1

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7920 on: November 10, 2017, 02:00:13 PM »
It's pretty simple, he's saying that with the amount of games the teams with squads best able to cope are likely to come to the fore in the latter part of the season.  It's hardly a controversial statement.

Offline Canadian Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7921 on: November 10, 2017, 05:15:22 PM »
I think Wyness's quote about the 3 teams was idiotic. It's hardly giving a good message to the current squad, get us promoted and you'll be moved on as you'll not be deemed good enough for Aston Villa any more. It sounds like a continued progression of 'do well for the club and we'll just end up replacing you because we'll be able to attract better players.'

Only if you take it that way. To me he isn't saying that get promoted and everyone will be scrapped. He is saying that after promotion the team needs to reassessed (just like it would be for promotion and every other stage) for the objective of consolidation. If the players are good enough for that stage then of course they stay.

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7922 on: November 10, 2017, 05:25:29 PM »
I think Wyness's quote about the 3 teams was idiotic. It's hardly giving a good message to the current squad, get us promoted and you'll be moved on as you'll not be deemed good enough for Aston Villa any more. It sounds like a continued progression of 'do well for the club and we'll just end up replacing you because we'll be able to attract better players.'

Only if you take it that way. To me he isn't saying that get promoted and everyone will be scrapped. He is saying that after promotion the team needs to reassessed (just like it would be for promotion and every other stage) for the objective of consolidation. If the players are good enough for that stage then of course they stay.

Ron Saunders did just that. He gave the players who'd won promotion every chance to prove themselves then replaced the ones who didn't.

Offline cheltenhamlion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7923 on: November 10, 2017, 05:43:47 PM »
Are there more points for a win in February?

Are there more in November?

Have a bit of a think about the post I was replying to.

He's right though.

Now have a bit of a think about what you've just written.

I have. He's basically saying the season doesn't end in November. Like I said earlier, Sheff Utd are 2nd at the moment. It's not to say they'll still be there in May.

But it is exactly what Sheffield United are doing that some of the Bruce doubters are referring to. They got promoted with a defined style of play and that confidence of the players in the manager has meant that they have built on it quite seemlessly at a higher level.

Our lack of a clear style means that people are concerned we will end up more resembling Bolton in the event we were promoted.

The smaller clubs that have stopped in the top flight did so from a position where everyone knew their jobs and how they were going to play from the previous season.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7924 on: November 10, 2017, 05:46:06 PM »
I think Wyness's quote about the 3 teams was idiotic. It's hardly giving a good message to the current squad, get us promoted and you'll be moved on as you'll not be deemed good enough for Aston Villa any more. It sounds like a continued progression of 'do well for the club and we'll just end up replacing you because we'll be able to attract better players.'

Only if you take it that way. To me he isn't saying that get promoted and everyone will be scrapped. He is saying that after promotion the team needs to reassessed (just like it would be for promotion and every other stage) for the objective of consolidation. If the players are good enough for that stage then of course they stay.

How many of the current squad will be fit enough or good enough to still be in the first choice 18 next year if we get promoted?

Johnstone (on the basis that he'll sign on a free if we go up), Chester and Taylor can probably be trusted, Elmo and Terry are 50/50 for me (the former based on ability the latter based on whether he'd even want to).  So 2 starting defenders.

In midfield Snodgrass and Onomah will be gone, Jedinak and Whelan have looked immobile at this level and wouldn't cope in the prem, Hourhane and Adomah might be ok as options and Grelaish might still work his way into things along with Green so 3-4 signings needed in there.

1 up front will Kodjia be good enough is 50/50 for me, Davis is probably a good option for the bench and Hogan, Mccormack and Gabby will all be out of their depth, so we'll need at least 1 there as well.

so 6-7 signings even if we want to give all the 50/50 guys a chance as you suggest.  That puts us back into a 'transition' period as the team gels, as process that seems to take 6months+ at Villa.

Online brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7925 on: November 10, 2017, 06:00:28 PM »
It would be a nice problem to have.  At the moment it is coin toss between good enough for the Prem and whether we can squeeze another Champs season out of them.

Offline Ads

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7926 on: November 10, 2017, 06:01:45 PM »
10 wins 0 draws and 5 defeats suggests boom or bust football from Sheffield United.

They may well be the team who stays the course like Huddersfield. I suspect both they and Bristol will find it harder February on than say ourselves, Wolves or Boro with our bigger squads.

Online brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7927 on: November 10, 2017, 06:29:26 PM »
Hope you are right but I shall not be betting my dud pound coins on it.  I really DO hope Steve Bruce comes good.  I just wish he would give me more encouragement to believe it can happen.

Offline Mister E

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7928 on: November 10, 2017, 06:45:53 PM »
I think Wyness's quote about the 3 teams was idiotic. It's hardly giving a good message to the current squad, get us promoted and you'll be moved on as you'll not be deemed good enough for Aston Villa any more. It sounds like a continued progression of 'do well for the club and we'll just end up replacing you because we'll be able to attract better players.'

Only if you take it that way. To me he isn't saying that get promoted and everyone will be scrapped. He is saying that after promotion the team needs to reassessed (just like it would be for promotion and every other stage) for the objective of consolidation. If the players are good enough for that stage then of course they stay.

How many of the current squad will be fit enough or good enough to still be in the first choice 18 next year if we get promoted?

Johnstone (on the basis that he'll sign on a free if we go up), Chester and Taylor can probably be trusted, Elmo and Terry are 50/50 for me (the former based on ability the latter based on whether he'd even want to).  So 2 starting defenders.

In midfield Snodgrass and Onomah will be gone, Jedinak and Whelan have looked immobile at this level and wouldn't cope in the prem, Hourhane and Adomah might be ok as options and Grelaish might still work his way into things along with Green so 3-4 signings needed in there.

1 up front will Kodjia be good enough is 50/50 for me, Davis is probably a good option for the bench and Hogan, Mccormack and Gabby will all be out of their depth, so we'll need at least 1 there as well.

so 6-7 signings even if we want to give all the 50/50 guys a chance as you suggest.  That puts us back into a 'transition' period as the team gels, as process that seems to take 6months+ at Villa.
Your assessment is reasonable, Paul, but only delivers a match day team, not the 25 man squad we may need.
I suppose my concern - expressed above in a couple of my posts, perhaps clumsily - is that we do not have the playing 'theme' to take forward into next season with the core of the squad playing to it, understanding it and believing it. It's what i thought Round was supposed to be doing, albeit little evidence has emerged as yet.

Offline cheltenhamlion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7929 on: November 10, 2017, 06:50:31 PM »
10 wins 0 draws and 5 defeats suggests boom or bust football from Sheffield United.

They may well be the team who stays the course like Huddersfield. I suspect both they and Bristol will find it harder February on than say ourselves, Wolves or Boro with our bigger squads.

They might go to shit entirely post Christmas but that wasn't my point. Just that those who are comfortable, with momentum, find it far easier to retain even if the quality of opposition is better.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7930 on: November 10, 2017, 07:59:53 PM »
I think Wyness's quote about the 3 teams was idiotic. It's hardly giving a good message to the current squad, get us promoted and you'll be moved on as you'll not be deemed good enough for Aston Villa any more. It sounds like a continued progression of 'do well for the club and we'll just end up replacing you because we'll be able to attract better players.'

Only if you take it that way. To me he isn't saying that get promoted and everyone will be scrapped. He is saying that after promotion the team needs to reassessed (just like it would be for promotion and every other stage) for the objective of consolidation. If the players are good enough for that stage then of course they stay.

How many of the current squad will be fit enough or good enough to still be in the first choice 18 next year if we get promoted?

Johnstone (on the basis that he'll sign on a free if we go up), Chester and Taylor can probably be trusted, Elmo and Terry are 50/50 for me (the former based on ability the latter based on whether he'd even want to).  So 2 starting defenders.

In midfield Snodgrass and Onomah will be gone, Jedinak and Whelan have looked immobile at this level and wouldn't cope in the prem, Hourhane and Adomah might be ok as options and Grelaish might still work his way into things along with Green so 3-4 signings needed in there.

1 up front will Kodjia be good enough is 50/50 for me, Davis is probably a good option for the bench and Hogan, Mccormack and Gabby will all be out of their depth, so we'll need at least 1 there as well.

so 6-7 signings even if we want to give all the 50/50 guys a chance as you suggest.  That puts us back into a 'transition' period as the team gels, as process that seems to take 6months+ at Villa.
Your assessment is reasonable, Paul, but only delivers a match day team, not the 25 man squad we may need.
I suppose my concern - expressed above in a couple of my posts, perhaps clumsily - is that we do not have the playing 'theme' to take forward into next season with the core of the squad playing to it, understanding it and believing it. It's what i thought Round was supposed to be doing, albeit little evidence has emerged as yet.

I agree, and I think the truth would be 4-5 squad players on top of what I've listed just to be competitive over the season, probably 100m+ in spending and with very little of that coming in from sales.  That's why I'm so concerned because it's going to be the same "1 shot to fix the squad" splurge that we did last summer.  I don't mind that concept but only if it's with a manager who fits our long term plan and if the signings are very carefully thought through and properly scouted.  I've said a number of times if I was able to offer some advice to Xia and Wyness when they started it would've been to focus their spending last summer on creating a scouting network and filling urgent gaps.  We'd have finished mid-table because the squad was pretty poor but we'd have gone into this pre-season with a proper plan for how we wanted to play and 4-5 options for every position that had been fully scouted.  Add in the likes of Davis and o'hare coming through and I think we could be where wolves are having spent far less so that money would be available now for a final push back to the premier league.

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7931 on: November 10, 2017, 08:29:06 PM »
One thing though - I'd rather get promoted with our attitude that we'll need a complete overhaul and even then we'll probably struggle than the Wolves belief of next stop Champions League.

Offline LeeB

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7932 on: November 10, 2017, 08:49:29 PM »
One thing though - I'd rather get promoted with our attitude that we'll need a complete overhaul and even then we'll probably struggle than the Wolves belief of next stop Champions League.

Spot on.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7933 on: November 10, 2017, 08:53:02 PM »
One thing though - I'd rather get promoted with our attitude that we'll need a complete overhaul and even then we'll probably struggle than the Wolves belief of next stop Champions League.

Oh I agree, i just find it strange that one of defences of Bruce has been that it taken a few months for the squad to gel and then we seem to be totally ok with going through the exact same process in a much tougher league instead of starting the process now and building towards it.

Offline olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7934 on: November 10, 2017, 09:24:42 PM »
One thing though - I'd rather get promoted with our attitude that we'll need a complete overhaul and even then we'll probably struggle than the Wolves belief of next stop Champions League.
I had to read that 3 times😥but you are right😊