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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 324081 times)

Offline Axl Rose

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7890 on: November 10, 2017, 01:32:59 AM »
You speak for me too, SE, and put it alot more eloquently than I ever could.

I've never liked Bruce as a manager, never liked his style of football, never liked the majority of his buys. And almost nothing he has done here has changed that.

I'd love him to do exceptionally well for us. But I don't think he ever will. I'd also love us to get rid of him, and bring someone better in to push us on to new levels. But I fear we won't be replacing him anytime soon.

As for enjoying us lose, never.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 01:35:35 AM by Axl Rose »

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7891 on: November 10, 2017, 06:48:25 AM »
The celebrating defeat thing probably comes from people who see posters almost revelling in being proven right when we suffer a defeat. Not happy with defeat because that would be crazy (though some say they'd take it if it were to get rid of him).

We've been on a pretty good run and yet one defeat resulted in people suggesting we were failing again and he should go.

In a similar vein, us folks that don't think he should go yet enjoy victories and undefeated runs and want him to be given a chance when it happens.

And in a similar vein, most of us who think he's a cholesterol-headed has-been-and-in-fact-never-was, tend to keep quiet during the brief good times because who'd want to come on here moaning when, despite the aesthetic ennui, the results are going the way we all want. But then when his sub-agricultural set-up sees all of our well-signposted fears/predictions made flesh, we reserve the right to resume having a pop at him because, well, we're right.

Despite my chronic overuse of the word 'we' above, I don't claim to speak for any other posters.

That to me sounds exactly what Drummond is getting at. Staying silent when we go on a good run 'because we're getting the results we want' which is very generous I might add (sarcasm alert), but jumping on the guy's back when we dare lose a game of football. At least we know where you stand.

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7892 on: November 10, 2017, 06:58:16 AM »
At the end of last season I said that I thought he should go because it was a low probability of Bruce getting us to finish in the top two and there were managers out there with a different style of play that stood a better chance.

Somebody raised the point that we are no closer to the top two than after our bad spell at the beginning of the season. Taking that we are around 10 games less to the end of the season, time is not our friend if we want to make the top two.

The next 10 games (up to and including Bristol City on Jan. 1st) are crucial. If we are no closer to the top two then (perish the thought of the gap being wider), we are into the last 20 games of the season and it becomes harder and harder with every game.

My worry is that one or more of teams around the top six come with strong runs and we have to get past 2 or 3 teams to get into the top two.

As others have said, Bruce is not doing badly enough to be sacked but could well be not doing enough to get us promoted, which is the worst position to be in.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7893 on: November 10, 2017, 08:18:32 AM »
The celebrating defeat thing probably comes from people who see posters almost revelling in being proven right when we suffer a defeat. Not happy with defeat because that would be crazy (though some say they'd take it if it were to get rid of him).

We've been on a pretty good run and yet one defeat resulted in people suggesting we were failing again and he should go.

In a similar vein, us folks that don't think he should go yet enjoy victories and undefeated runs and want him to be given a chance when it happens.

And in a similar vein, most of us who think he's a cholesterol-headed has-been-and-in-fact-never-was, tend to keep quiet during the brief good times because who'd want to come on here moaning when, despite the aesthetic ennui, the results are going the way we all want. But then when his sub-agricultural set-up sees all of our well-signposted fears/predictions made flesh, we reserve the right to resume having a pop at him because, well, we're right.

Despite my chronic overuse of the word 'we' above, I don't claim to speak for any other posters.

Despite the flowery Rees-Mogg lite approach it all boils down to one phrase “we’re right”. Not meaning to single you out, it an attitude common to the handful of people who post the same point several times each day and seem unable to tolerate an alternative take on things, but it gives an impression of arrogance and intolerance.

The factual position is  that we have put ourselves in a position to challenge for promotion, the same as about ten other teams. Which is all you can expect by early November. Bruce, despite the  ludicrous suggestion of being a “never was” has shown an ability to get teams promoted from this division and achieving that is the only thing that really matters.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7894 on: November 10, 2017, 08:23:04 AM »
Very well said SE.  This malaise is the inevitable consequence of the deliberate diminution of supporters expectations.  Doing so so has become enough for large numbers of fans.  The voices of those who want better than okay, who want excellence from Villa will be drowned out altogether eventually.  We may scrape the play offs, we may scrape the play off final.  If we do it will be hailed as justification for the years of rubbish we have endured under six managers and we shall be subjected to more of the same.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7895 on: November 10, 2017, 08:25:49 AM »
I disagree Chris.  All we can expect in November?  Not for me I'm afraid.

Offline cdbullyweefan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7896 on: November 10, 2017, 08:27:03 AM »
Can never really decide on Bruce. Every time I think he definitely has to go, we go on a winning run. Every time I think he might be okay after all, we start losing.

The way I see it, we go up... he stays. Regardless of what people think, he isn't going to get the boot if we get promoted. We aren't Watford. If we stay down... he has to go. Whether we finish fifteenth or lose the playoff final on penalties is irrelevant. Failure to get this club out of this division is not good enough.

Offline passitsideways

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7897 on: November 10, 2017, 08:31:51 AM »
The celebrating defeat thing probably comes from people who see posters almost revelling in being proven right when we suffer a defeat. Not happy with defeat because that would be crazy (though some say they'd take it if it were to get rid of him).

We've been on a pretty good run and yet one defeat resulted in people suggesting we were failing again and he should go.

In a similar vein, us folks that don't think he should go yet enjoy victories and undefeated runs and want him to be given a chance when it happens.

And in a similar vein, most of us who think he's a cholesterol-headed has-been-and-in-fact-never-was, tend to keep quiet during the brief good times because who'd want to come on here moaning when, despite the aesthetic ennui, the results are going the way we all want. But then when his sub-agricultural set-up sees all of our well-signposted fears/predictions made flesh, we reserve the right to resume having a pop at him because, well, we're right.

Despite my chronic overuse of the word 'we' above, I don't claim to speak for any other posters.

That to me sounds exactly what Drummond is getting at. Staying silent when we go on a good run 'because we're getting the results we want' which is very generous I might add (sarcasm alert), but jumping on the guy's back when we dare lose a game of football. At least we know where you stand.

What would you prefer instead - that people keep vocally expressing their scepticism about Bruce even during good stretches, and then get labelled as whingers and the like? That's all a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't for me.

On your second point, in isolation, it may be unfair to criticise a manager for losing a single game of football, when it could've just been "one of those days", but given the peaks and troughs that we've experienced under Bruce so far, is it really out of line to be concerned that a single defeat might be the catalyst for yet another dry stretch?

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7898 on: November 10, 2017, 08:38:13 AM »
I disagree Chris.  All we can expect in November?  Not for me I'm afraid.

But that's all it is, November. We could be in the top two I suppose but being in the top two doesn't guarantee you promotion in November. Sheffield United are up there at the moment on merit. They might not be in May. Wolves apart, it's quite open this year.

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7899 on: November 10, 2017, 08:40:20 AM »
The celebrating defeat thing probably comes from people who see posters almost revelling in being proven right when we suffer a defeat. Not happy with defeat because that would be crazy (though some say they'd take it if it were to get rid of him).

We've been on a pretty good run and yet one defeat resulted in people suggesting we were failing again and he should go.

In a similar vein, us folks that don't think he should go yet enjoy victories and undefeated runs and want him to be given a chance when it happens.

And in a similar vein, most of us who think he's a cholesterol-headed has-been-and-in-fact-never-was, tend to keep quiet during the brief good times because who'd want to come on here moaning when, despite the aesthetic ennui, the results are going the way we all want. But then when his sub-agricultural set-up sees all of our well-signposted fears/predictions made flesh, we reserve the right to resume having a pop at him because, well, we're right.

Despite my chronic overuse of the word 'we' above, I don't claim to speak for any other posters.

That to me sounds exactly what Drummond is getting at. Staying silent when we go on a good run 'because we're getting the results we want' which is very generous I might add (sarcasm alert), but jumping on the guy's back when we dare lose a game of football. At least we know where you stand.

What would you prefer instead - that people keep vocally expressing their scepticism about Bruce even during good stretches, and then get labelled as whingers and the like? That's all a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't for me.

On your second point, in isolation, it may be unfair to criticise a manager for losing a single game of football, when it could've just been "one of those days", but given the peaks and troughs that we've experienced under Bruce so far, is it really out of line to be concerned that a single defeat might be the catalyst for yet another dry stretch?

We did lose two against Cardiff and Reading then went on a good run which ended with us being beaten by the leaders at their place. We then played 4 games after that, losing one of them which was last weekend. Apart from the disappointing start, we haven't really had a bad run this season have we?

Offline Ad@m

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7900 on: November 10, 2017, 08:47:12 AM »
It's the patterns beyond the league position that are important for me. 

The good runs always coincide with fixtures against the lower teams in the division and every time we come up against any of the other promotion challengers we come unstuck.  That pattern is bound to get you finishing top 10 but almost certainly won't get you promoted.  Given the amount of money we've spent that's not good enough.

We're Aston Villa FFS.  I know we don't have a divine right to be successful, but a club of our size should have an expectation of being successful in the 2nd division.  Anything less than winning this league is a failure in my eyes as I can't see any logical reason why we shouldn't.  Wolves are smashing the league - they're not inherently better than us.  The take in less money, spend less money on players, their training facilities are worse, their coaching set up will be worse.  There's just no reason why they should be 9 points ahead of us.  That's why despite winning whatever it is over the past month or so I still want him gone - that thought only being tempered slightly by the fact there's no obvious replacement there.  But then I'm not paid to scout out good quality managers.

I think that he's toast at the end of this year regardless.  Remember, he left Hull just after they'd been promoted because he fell out with the Chairman.  I can see the same happening again if Tone tells him he's persona non grata.

Offline passitsideways

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7901 on: November 10, 2017, 08:51:06 AM »
The celebrating defeat thing probably comes from people who see posters almost revelling in being proven right when we suffer a defeat. Not happy with defeat because that would be crazy (though some say they'd take it if it were to get rid of him).

We've been on a pretty good run and yet one defeat resulted in people suggesting we were failing again and he should go.

In a similar vein, us folks that don't think he should go yet enjoy victories and undefeated runs and want him to be given a chance when it happens.

And in a similar vein, most of us who think he's a cholesterol-headed has-been-and-in-fact-never-was, tend to keep quiet during the brief good times because who'd want to come on here moaning when, despite the aesthetic ennui, the results are going the way we all want. But then when his sub-agricultural set-up sees all of our well-signposted fears/predictions made flesh, we reserve the right to resume having a pop at him because, well, we're right.

Despite my chronic overuse of the word 'we' above, I don't claim to speak for any other posters.

That to me sounds exactly what Drummond is getting at. Staying silent when we go on a good run 'because we're getting the results we want' which is very generous I might add (sarcasm alert), but jumping on the guy's back when we dare lose a game of football. At least we know where you stand.

What would you prefer instead - that people keep vocally expressing their scepticism about Bruce even during good stretches, and then get labelled as whingers and the like? That's all a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't for me.

On your second point, in isolation, it may be unfair to criticise a manager for losing a single game of football, when it could've just been "one of those days", but given the peaks and troughs that we've experienced under Bruce so far, is it really out of line to be concerned that a single defeat might be the catalyst for yet another dry stretch?

We did lose two against Cardiff and Reading then went on a good run which ended with us being beaten by the leaders at their place. We then played 4 games after that, losing one of them which was last weekend. Apart from the disappointing start, we haven't really had a bad run this season have we?

We started off the season by winning 1 out of our first 7, for a total of 7 points. I know that's setting an arbitrary endpoint and all, but that has to be regarded as a bad run by the standards of a team with genuine promotion aspirations.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7902 on: November 10, 2017, 08:54:33 AM »
I disagree Chris.  All we can expect in November?  Not for me I'm afraid.

But expectation is all there is for any team at the moment, we are a only a third of the way into the season.

Offline Sexual Ealing

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7903 on: November 10, 2017, 09:00:49 AM »
The celebrating defeat thing probably comes from people who see posters almost revelling in being proven right when we suffer a defeat. Not happy with defeat because that would be crazy (though some say they'd take it if it were to get rid of him).

We've been on a pretty good run and yet one defeat resulted in people suggesting we were failing again and he should go.

In a similar vein, us folks that don't think he should go yet enjoy victories and undefeated runs and want him to be given a chance when it happens.

And in a similar vein, most of us who think he's a cholesterol-headed has-been-and-in-fact-never-was, tend to keep quiet during the brief good times because who'd want to come on here moaning when, despite the aesthetic ennui, the results are going the way we all want. But then when his sub-agricultural set-up sees all of our well-signposted fears/predictions made flesh, we reserve the right to resume having a pop at him because, well, we're right.

Despite my chronic overuse of the word 'we' above, I don't claim to speak for any other posters.

Despite the flowery Rees-Mogg lite approach

Flowery? Rees-Mogg? I think you need to stop reading the Daily Express if you think that was flowery.

Offline Mister E

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7904 on: November 10, 2017, 09:04:56 AM »
It's the patterns beyond the league position that are important for me. 
This is the sentence that sums things up well. Almost regardless of the win-draw-loss cycle that the current manager achieves, the underlying theme is of a squad not operating to a credible strategy, with flexible tactics and game-management to keep opposition managers guessing. If you believe the disparaging quote on here from Scott Hogan that training consists of bibs and cones ("pullovers for goalposts"), I despair ...
... not of ever not being promoted, but of actually being promoted. With this squad and this manager we would get humiliated. And to those who say that Tony will simply buy a new squad, I don't see how that will work. The promoted sides that thrive tend to build on an already-existing core of players who play to a discernible style and ethos and who have a togetherness built on belief of the manager's capabilities.
I don't get that vibe with Villa right now.