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Re: Other Games - 2017/18 by Axl Rose
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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 317984 times)

Offline Canadian Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7830 on: November 07, 2017, 10:23:55 PM »
My Everton mates have told me stories about Koeman and how toxic it was at Finch Farm. Steer well clear

Care to elaborate? otherwise it's just vicious rumors. Which is quite toxic in itself.

Offline Meanwood Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7831 on: November 07, 2017, 10:26:01 PM »
We're 6th at the moment which is minimum requirement come the end of the season. I must admit all this talk of his position is a bit absurd, he's clearly not going to get the boot unless we go on a long losing/winless run which I don't think will happen even without Terry. Also anyone thinking he won't keep his job, rightly or wrongly, if he does take us up is delusional. No-one but no-one sacks a manager who has just achieved their primary aim.

Offline not3bad

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7832 on: November 07, 2017, 10:28:42 PM »
anyone thinking he won't keep his job, rightly or wrongly, if he does take us up is delusional. No-one but no-one sacks a manager who has just achieved their primary aim.

True, although Southampton and Newcastle sacked their managers not long into their respective first seasons back in the Premier League - and when they were both doing pretty well too.

Offline not3bad

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7833 on: November 07, 2017, 10:38:30 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

my hand was up in the summer and it's still up now regarding Koeman
And given his record at Everton, if we had appointed him when Dimatteo was sacked are you absolutely confident we wouldn't have gone down whilst he tried to get to grips with what over the last few years many people on here have classed as a seemingly impossible job?  Yeah, I'd have like him too, but in hindsight I think it could have been a disaster.

And if you think Bruce hasn't done well with the resources at his disposal look at what Koeman was given to spend over the Summer.

Offline Simon Page

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7834 on: November 08, 2017, 07:50:24 AM »

Not rewritten, his first 2-3 seasons were excellent but from there he just couldn't find a way to take the next step.  His time there was a lot like mon for us.

That said, you're not the person I was talking about, i meant the people who were voting for him on the poll a couple of months ago when Bruce looked close to fucked.

Sorry for dipping back two pages. Busy day yesterday. Are you sure about not rewriting? In his first four seasons Everton finished 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th. The rest of the time was 5th to 8th  which, given the spending power of those above was a reasonable if not necessarily spectacular return. In the 10 seasons before Moyes, Everton finished top half once. They've had two bottom half finishes in the four seasons since Moyes left.

Offline stuart445

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7835 on: November 08, 2017, 09:33:51 AM »
Weve seen home wins, weve seen away wins, weve seen team spirit and battling performances, weve seen the fans back on side.  So has he stopped the slide, the rot?  Id say yes.  Would Koeman or another manager?  Who knows?
It absolutely needs to get better, much better, but we now have a feeling of stability.
I dont know if well go up or not, but I do feel he has done a job that may have been too big and too difficult for other less experienced managers.

Are the slide and the rot the same thing?  I'd say not, the slide down to here was a consequence and, like the short-term appointment he is, Bruce has sort of addressed it (but until we're top 2 not fully) but we've seen nothing to suggest what he's doing has addressed the long-term problems of poor scouting/transfers, a style that lives and dies in the managers office and a failure to adapt to a modern approach to the game.

We have no idea whether a different style of manager would've done better or worse and we have no idea whether the 'stability' that you believe he's provided is real but given it's been built around a lot of players who are closing in on retirement I suspect it's just set us up for another 'transition' next summer (or the one after at best).

So RDM never happened then?

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7836 on: November 08, 2017, 09:56:53 AM »
Weve seen home wins, weve seen away wins, weve seen team spirit and battling performances, weve seen the fans back on side.  So has he stopped the slide, the rot?  Id say yes.  Would Koeman or another manager?  Who knows?
It absolutely needs to get better, much better, but we now have a feeling of stability.
I dont know if well go up or not, but I do feel he has done a job that may have been too big and too difficult for other less experienced managers.

Are the slide and the rot the same thing?  I'd say not, the slide down to here was a consequence and, like the short-term appointment he is, Bruce has sort of addressed it (but until we're top 2 not fully) but we've seen nothing to suggest what he's doing has addressed the long-term problems of poor scouting/transfers, a style that lives and dies in the managers office and a failure to adapt to a modern approach to the game.

We have no idea whether a different style of manager would've done better or worse and we have no idea whether the 'stability' that you believe he's provided is real but given it's been built around a lot of players who are closing in on retirement I suspect it's just set us up for another 'transition' next summer (or the one after at best).

So RDM never happened then?

You'll have to clarify how you've got to there because that has literally fuck all to do with anything I wrote.  Unless you're trying to suggest that RDM is the only other style of manager we could've picked and him failing means any manager other than Bruce would've failed as well.  For most people on this forum I wouldn't even imagine they could think that but you have history of making ridiculous claims so I guess it's possible.

Offline stuart445

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7837 on: November 08, 2017, 10:03:20 AM »
Weve seen home wins, weve seen away wins, weve seen team spirit and battling performances, weve seen the fans back on side.  So has he stopped the slide, the rot?  Id say yes.  Would Koeman or another manager?  Who knows?
It absolutely needs to get better, much better, but we now have a feeling of stability.
I dont know if well go up or not, but I do feel he has done a job that may have been too big and too difficult for other less experienced managers.

Are the slide and the rot the same thing?  I'd say not, the slide down to here was a consequence and, like the short-term appointment he is, Bruce has sort of addressed it (but until we're top 2 not fully) but we've seen nothing to suggest what he's doing has addressed the long-term problems of poor scouting/transfers, a style that lives and dies in the managers office and a failure to adapt to a modern approach to the game.

We have no idea whether a different style of manager would've done better or worse and we have no idea whether the 'stability' that you believe he's provided is real but given it's been built around a lot of players who are closing in on retirement I suspect it's just set us up for another 'transition' next summer (or the one after at best).

So RDM never happened then?

You'll have to clarify how you've got to there because that has literally fuck all to do with anything I wrote.  Unless you're trying to suggest that RDM is the only other style of manager we could've picked and him failing means any manager other than Bruce would've failed as well.  For most people on this forum I wouldn't even imagine they could think that but you have history of making ridiculous claims so I guess it's possible.

You said we have no idea whether a different style of manager would have done better or worse.

RDM is a different style if manager and he didn't work so you are the one talking rubbish and clearly but you keep telling yourself that it's other people that are making ridiculous claims.

Hopefully it'll be a good few games until you get all excited about Villa losing and how you can claim Bruce is rubbish and he needs to be sacked again.

Imagine being a Villa fan and only enjoying when Villa lose.... Oh wait you don't need to imagine that do you.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7838 on: November 08, 2017, 10:54:17 AM »
Weve seen home wins, weve seen away wins, weve seen team spirit and battling performances, weve seen the fans back on side.  So has he stopped the slide, the rot?  Id say yes.  Would Koeman or another manager?  Who knows?
It absolutely needs to get better, much better, but we now have a feeling of stability.
I dont know if well go up or not, but I do feel he has done a job that may have been too big and too difficult for other less experienced managers.

Are the slide and the rot the same thing?  I'd say not, the slide down to here was a consequence and, like the short-term appointment he is, Bruce has sort of addressed it (but until we're top 2 not fully) but we've seen nothing to suggest what he's doing has addressed the long-term problems of poor scouting/transfers, a style that lives and dies in the managers office and a failure to adapt to a modern approach to the game.

We have no idea whether a different style of manager would've done better or worse and we have no idea whether the 'stability' that you believe he's provided is real but given it's been built around a lot of players who are closing in on retirement I suspect it's just set us up for another 'transition' next summer (or the one after at best).

So RDM never happened then?

You'll have to clarify how you've got to there because that has literally fuck all to do with anything I wrote.  Unless you're trying to suggest that RDM is the only other style of manager we could've picked and him failing means any manager other than Bruce would've failed as well.  For most people on this forum I wouldn't even imagine they could think that but you have history of making ridiculous claims so I guess it's possible.

You said we have no idea whether a different style of manager would have done better or worse.

RDM is a different style if manager and he didn't work so you are the one talking rubbish and clearly but you keep telling yourself that it's other people that are making ridiculous claims.

Hopefully it'll be a good few games until you get all excited about Villa losing and how you can claim Bruce is rubbish and he needs to be sacked again.

Imagine being a Villa fan and only enjoying when Villa lose.... Oh wait you don't need to imagine that do you.

Are you really this stupid?  RDM is ONE other style of manager, there are more than 2 and, even more importantly, there are good and bad managers regardless of there style of play and there are managers who don't work out but could've been fine in different circumstances.  Whittling it down to to 'we had a foreigner and he didn't do it so Bruce is the only option' is fucking stupid and yet it's exactly what you've done, as I suspected from the guy who wrote Benteke off as shit because he missed a couple of chances.

Thinking the manager isn't great and defeats like Saturday show why isn't celebrating a defeat or being happy about it, is that really such a complex idea that you can't understand it?

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7839 on: November 08, 2017, 11:10:45 AM »

Not rewritten, his first 2-3 seasons were excellent but from there he just couldn't find a way to take the next step.  His time there was a lot like mon for us.

That said, you're not the person I was talking about, i meant the people who were voting for him on the poll a couple of months ago when Bruce looked close to fucked.

Sorry for dipping back two pages. Busy day yesterday. Are you sure about not rewriting? In his first four seasons Everton finished 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th. The rest of the time was 5th to 8th  which, given the spending power of those above was a reasonable if not necessarily spectacular return. In the 10 seasons before Moyes, Everton finished top half once. They've had two bottom half finishes in the four seasons since Moyes left.

I think you're misunderstanding me.  He got them to 4th in his 3rd season, that was a great achievement but the following summer he showed how limited he was and from there they stood still because he couldn't find a way to move them on any more.  What came before and after doesn't really matter, he hit a ceiling and got stuck, which is exactly what happened with mon at Villa.  Both clubs made the mistake of letting the manager keep trying the same thing over and over again with evidence to suggest that what they were doing was having no effect.  That they got it wrong with the next guy doesn't really change that.

Offline Dave

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7840 on: November 08, 2017, 11:11:14 AM »

Hopefully it'll be a good few games until you get all excited about Villa losing and how you can claim Bruce is rubbish and he needs to be sacked again.

Imagine being a Villa fan and only enjoying when Villa lose.... Oh wait you don't need to imagine that do you.

Can we knock this "wanting Villa to lose" silliness on the head please.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7841 on: November 08, 2017, 11:25:32 AM »
If/when we're back in the prem and SB is dispensed with I reckon we'd go for managers like Pellegrini and Mancini.

Big names (certainly higher calibre than we targeted post MON under Lerner), both won the league title and know the premier league and being diplomatic slightly on their way down in managerial career so top 4-6 clubs wouldn't be interested anymore.

All about timing though and if they're available though.

That's the level of ambition I'd be looking for anyway. Koeman wouldn't be a bad shout either, he did well enough at Southampton didn't he?

Offline Dave

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7842 on: November 08, 2017, 11:50:39 AM »
If/when we're back in the prem and SB is dispensed with I reckon we'd go for managers like Pellegrini and Mancini.

Big names (certainly higher calibre than we targeted post MON under Lerner), both won the league title and know the premier league and being diplomatic slightly on their way down in managerial career so top 4-6 clubs wouldn't be interested anymore.

All about timing though and if they're available though.

That's the level of ambition I'd be looking for anyway. Koeman wouldn't be a bad shout either, he did well enough at Southampton didn't he?

By all accounts, the Southampton hierarchy weren't exactly upset when Everton came knocking.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7843 on: November 08, 2017, 11:59:10 AM »
Maybe true but then by all accounts MON wasn't easy to work with.

His three full seasons in England were all finishing in top 8 I think.

Offline passitsideways

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7844 on: November 08, 2017, 12:12:43 PM »

Not rewritten, his first 2-3 seasons were excellent but from there he just couldn't find a way to take the next step.  His time there was a lot like mon for us.

That said, you're not the person I was talking about, i meant the people who were voting for him on the poll a couple of months ago when Bruce looked close to fucked.

Sorry for dipping back two pages. Busy day yesterday. Are you sure about not rewriting? In his first four seasons Everton finished 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th. The rest of the time was 5th to 8th  which, given the spending power of those above was a reasonable if not necessarily spectacular return. In the 10 seasons before Moyes, Everton finished top half once. They've had two bottom half finishes in the four seasons since Moyes left.

I think you're misunderstanding me.  He got them to 4th in his 3rd season, that was a great achievement but the following summer he showed how limited he was and from there they stood still because he couldn't find a way to move them on any more.  What came before and after doesn't really matter, he hit a ceiling and got stuck, which is exactly what happened with mon at Villa.  Both clubs made the mistake of letting the manager keep trying the same thing over and over again with evidence to suggest that what they were doing was having no effect.  That they got it wrong with the next guy doesn't really change that.

I think in Moyes' case the financial limitations he faced had a general impact though, and distinguishes it from MON - although even MON actually didn't spend much at all in his first couple of seasons. That's what disappointed me particularly with MON in the end, outside of his walkout - the fact that he'd managed to build a squad that finished 6th with relatively limited resources, only to follow it up by spending something like 40 or 50 million two summers straight for very little in terms of further progression.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:14:23 PM by passitsideways »