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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 327161 times)

Online ChicagoLion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7815 on: November 07, 2017, 03:17:49 PM »
As said, the only way he is going is if he has the sort of run that takes us down the table and then it would be a panick move.
We are stuck with him and at best the lottery of the play offs.
At least some people are more than happy with that.

1/ Bollocks
2/ Bollocks and bollocks
3/ In my considered opinion that's bollocks too.

Blimey you really have become the miserable Yorkshire stereotype haven't you ? :)

Hope you are well - regards Clive

With Scottish Blood in me too.

Seems I need to explain.

1/ Why would sacking a manager after a bad run be a panic move, especially given the original poster wants him gone anyway. It seems like whatever happens the club will be criticised.
2/ We aren't stuck with him if 1/ comes to pass, and nobody has any idea if we're stuck with the playoffs (though I do think it is a possibility)
3/ I'm not sure anyone has said that they are 'more than happy with that'.

Cheers, El Miserablist
So you have a problem with the word panic, well it would hardly be planned would it?
You have a problem with saying we are stuck with him, the fact that he is still here suggest that we are stuck with him.
I did want him gone, we should not have continued following his failure last season and the club should be criticised for that. The aggressive defence of Bruce  by you and others would also demonstrate happiness.
So bollocks to you with bells on.

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7816 on: November 07, 2017, 04:40:40 PM »
As said, the only way he is going is if he has the sort of run that takes us down the table and then it would be a panick move.
We are stuck with him and at best the lottery of the play offs.
At least some people are more than happy with that.

1/ Bollocks
2/ Bollocks and bollocks
3/ In my considered opinion that's bollocks too.

Blimey you really have become the miserable Yorkshire stereotype haven't you ? :)

Hope you are well - regards Clive

With Scottish Blood in me too.

Seems I need to explain.

1/ Why would sacking a manager after a bad run be a panic move, especially given the original poster wants him gone anyway. It seems like whatever happens the club will be criticised.
2/ We aren't stuck with him if 1/ comes to pass, and nobody has any idea if we're stuck with the playoffs (though I do think it is a possibility)
3/ I'm not sure anyone has said that they are 'more than happy with that'.

Cheers, El Miserablist

Not aimed at me, but I kind of agree with CL on a couple of the points so will have a go:

1. There would be a sense of panic at the club if we go on the kind of run that would result in him being sacked.  By that point promotion would be very much in doubt, so we would probably looking at a short term fix again (in the hope they could salvage promotion) rather than a more progressive appointment.

2. "Stuck with him" is a bit harsh seeing as we are in the play offs at the moment, but it does kind of sum up where we are with him.  I think there are managers out there who could have done a lot better with the resources we have, but he hasn't done poorly enough to warrant being sacked.  That has left us in a position where we have got to see how the next few months unfold, which may result in us cementing a position in the promotion mix or going on the kind of run that would result in the above scenario happening.  So in that respect we are kind of "stuck with him" for the time being.

3. I wouldn't blame anyone for being relatively happy with where we currently are after what we have been through the past few years.  The big question is whether he can see it home from here and I would feel happier if I genuinely believed he was capable of getting us to produce a real strong run of form in the second half of the season.  I still have nagging doubts about whether he can do that, but am more than prepared to give him a chance at this point. 

Offline Dougs Socks

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7817 on: November 07, 2017, 05:50:05 PM »
The man infuriates me, and you only need to read the article in the Telegraph(??) after his dismissal from Sunderland to see all the traits are being repeated with us. So no, in not a big fan of his.

However, unless we go on a disastrous run or fail to go up, can we afford to let him go. We are safer with him at the moment, and with FFP hanging over us, any new manager coming in, is going to have on hand tied behind his back.

Im also of the opinion that the employment of decent attack minded coach, might be more beneficial than sacking Bruce. All about opinions though. 8)

Online Drummond

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7818 on: November 07, 2017, 06:06:34 PM »
As said, the only way he is going is if he has the sort of run that takes us down the table and then it would be a panick move.
We are stuck with him and at best the lottery of the play offs.
At least some people are more than happy with that.

1/ Bollocks
2/ Bollocks and bollocks
3/ In my considered opinion that's bollocks too.

Blimey you really have become the miserable Yorkshire stereotype haven't you ? :)

Hope you are well - regards Clive

With Scottish Blood in me too.

Seems I need to explain.

1/ Why would sacking a manager after a bad run be a panic move, especially given the original poster wants him gone anyway. It seems like whatever happens the club will be criticised.
2/ We aren't stuck with him if 1/ comes to pass, and nobody has any idea if we're stuck with the playoffs (though I do think it is a possibility)
3/ I'm not sure anyone has said that they are 'more than happy with that'.

Cheers, El Miserablist
So you have a problem with the word panic, well it would hardly be planned would it?
You have a problem with saying we are stuck with him, the fact that he is still here suggest that we are stuck with him.
I did want him gone, we should not have continued following his failure last season and the club should be criticised for that. The aggressive defence of Bruce  by you and others would also demonstrate happiness.
So bollocks to you with bells on.

Panic - "sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behaviour". So no, it wouldn't be panic.

Stuck with him is a term used by you, in a negative way, to suggest he won't be leaving. Which is odd, because, if he stays, that means he's doing an ok job doesn't it.

Did or do want him gone?

'His failure last season' as defined by you? Or his boss? Or the club owner? Or everyone?

I wouldn't say that I've been overly aggressive, other than perhaps in my bollocks post. But yes, I believe he shoudl be given more time as he's not doing as badly as some would make out. And given that the gap to the top 2 is not insurmountable, I don't believe he should be sacked, especially given the recent run that has seen us at the top end of the form table for some time.

Bollocks and bells.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7819 on: November 07, 2017, 06:18:03 PM »
As said, the only way he is going is if he has the sort of run that takes us down the table and then it would be a panick move.
We are stuck with him and at best the lottery of the play offs.
At least some people are more than happy with that.

1/ Bollocks
2/ Bollocks and bollocks
3/ In my considered opinion that's bollocks too.

Blimey you really have become the miserable Yorkshire stereotype haven't you ? :)

Hope you are well - regards Clive

With Scottish Blood in me too.

Seems I need to explain.

1/ Why would sacking a manager after a bad run be a panic move, especially given the original poster wants him gone anyway. It seems like whatever happens the club will be criticised.
2/ We aren't stuck with him if 1/ comes to pass, and nobody has any idea if we're stuck with the playoffs (though I do think it is a possibility)
3/ I'm not sure anyone has said that they are 'more than happy with that'.

Cheers, El Miserablist
So you have a problem with the word panic, well it would hardly be planned would it?
You have a problem with saying we are stuck with him, the fact that he is still here suggest that we are stuck with him.
I did want him gone, we should not have continued following his failure last season and the club should be criticised for that. The aggressive defence of Bruce  by you and others would also demonstrate happiness.
So bollocks to you with bells on.

Labelling someone else's opinion which happens to be different to yours as 'aggressive defiance' is also bollocks. Or is that aggressive bollocks?


Online chrisw1

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7820 on: November 07, 2017, 06:29:21 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

Online john e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7821 on: November 07, 2017, 06:35:49 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

my hand was up in the summer and it's still up now regarding Koeman

Offline LeeB

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7822 on: November 07, 2017, 06:50:47 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

Excellent post Chris, articulates exactly where I am with the situation.

Online chrisw1

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7823 on: November 07, 2017, 06:55:32 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

my hand was up in the summer and it's still up now regarding Koeman
And given his record at Everton, if we had appointed him when Dimatteo was sacked are you absolutely confident we wouldn't have gone down whilst he tried to get to grips with what over the last few years many people on here have classed as a seemingly impossible job?  Yeah, I'd have like him too, but in hindsight I think it could have been a disaster.

Offline Ads

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7824 on: November 07, 2017, 07:17:36 PM »
My Everton mates have told me stories about Koeman and how toxic it was at Finch Farm. Steer well clear

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7825 on: November 07, 2017, 08:06:21 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

Agree with a lot of that Chris, but I'm just not sure whether we have it in us to 'kick on' at this point.  As I said earlier in the thread, the next two months will be really telling.  We would all love us to become a side capable of dominating in this league, but I just can't say that I have seen evidence so far this season that would suggest that is a possibility.  I think it's more likely that we are in for a long, hard slog as the season goes on.

As for next season, if we don't go up we are looking at a total rebuild of the club. 

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7826 on: November 07, 2017, 08:42:17 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

Has it really though?  We still have a squad that's far too big, with people like Gabby and Richards milking us for a fortune, we still have 25m worth of strikers that are either on loan the other side of the world or look totally lost, we're still a long way from being promoted back to the premier league and miles away from being capable of staying there if we do go up.  Yes we've thrown a lot of money at the squad and got to the point where we have about 14-15 players we can trust to be competitive but we've done nothing to address the short-termism that led to where we are, we've actually just adopted the exact same strategy to get back that caused us to be relegated.

Bruce hasn't delivered what we hoped, either last year or so far this and I see nothing in how we've played to suggest we're going to kick on now as you believe, we'll continue to muddle along losing/drawing games we should win just when we build some momentum because that's what Bruce has done for his entire career.  It might be enough to get us into the playoffs but, as you say, that will be a disappointing finish when we wanted the top 2.  If we win them then it will be great but it's still papering over the cracks until we get a manager that fits our long-term plans.

Finally I really like the inclusion of Koeman as a failed manager, because of a bad run of 11 games this season, in a defence of a man who has had 2 runs worse than that in 13 months with us.  Koeman has a lot more credit in the bank than Bruce but because he's a foreigner who's having a bad run you just throw him in with the others who've not done well.

Offline brontebilly

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7827 on: November 07, 2017, 08:57:17 PM »
The arguments go round and round.  He's done ok.  We've certainly stabilised and look far better placed to kick on from here.  With the Terry injury I now suspect top two looks a big ask.  If you had asked me at the start of the season would I take the play offs the answer would have been no, I'd be dissapointed.

But whilst it's all very well looking misty eyed at the finds like Wagner, Santo & Pochetino, for every one of these there's probably several failed managers like Koeman (hands up who would have loved him in the summer?), Solskjaer, Pepe Mel, Garde, Zenga etc.  If we had got this wrong when Di matteo was sacked we could well be looking at life in the third division right now given the downwards spiral we were on. 

So yeah, whilst I appreciate he has had good resources and do hanker for someone more progressive and exciting, it is so easy to gamble the future of the club on a whimsical appointment when you are sat at your keyboard.  The rot, poison etc that people so often referred to as permeating through the club has been well and truly stopped and whether it is with Bruce this year or someone else next year we are in a far stronger more stable place from which to kick on.  And for all his failings I do think Brucey deserves a lot of credit for that.

Agree with a lot of that Chris, but I'm just not sure whether we have it in us to 'kick on' at this point.  As I said earlier in the thread, the next two months will be really telling.  We would all love us to become a side capable of dominating in this league, but I just can't say that I have seen evidence so far this season that would suggest that is a possibility.  I think it's more likely that we are in for a long, hard slog as the season goes on.

As for next season, if we don't go up we are looking at a total rebuild of the club.

Total rebuild of the club on a fraction of the budget given to RDM and Bruce. Risk of us following Leeds into an aimless drift is then very real.

With Bruce, I see little sustainable with him. He correctly runs out McCormacks insidious influence from the club but replaces him with one of the most poorly scouted players we have ever signed, Hogan. We spend a sigmificant part of this summers budget on unnecessary signings in areas of the pitch we are already strong (Elmo and Snodgrass come to mind) so when the 36 year old Terry gets injured our back up options are ghastly. That's really poor.

As an experienced manager, Bruce has proved himself quite limited in maximising the return from the budget available to him. Though to be fair, with the exception of Baker none of the others let go in his time have proven him wrong either.

Tactically, there really is very little consistent regarding formation and competing at the top end of the table should really be the bare minimum.

Without ever being convincing, and mutiny between board and supporters, he got Hull back up at first time of asking via the playoffs. I always thought that would be a tougher job than us, and the huge budget he has now, but maybe we all underestimate how rotten the culture at Villa Park is. We were a diabolical club for at least our last five years in the top division culminating in a shameful relegation.

It's nearly 30 years since a departing Villa manager has got a better job. For most of Bruce's predecessors, AVFC has effectively finished their managerial careers. At this stage I'm still in the camp of keeping faith with him.

Online chrisw1

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7828 on: November 07, 2017, 09:52:26 PM »
Weve seen home wins, weve seen away wins, weve seen team spirit and battling performances, weve seen the fans back on side.  So has he stopped the slide, the rot?  Id say yes.  Would Koeman or another manager?  Who knows?
It absolutely needs to get better, much better, but we now have a feeling of stability.
I dont know if well go up or not, but I do feel he has done a job that may have been too big and too difficult for other less experienced managers.


Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7829 on: November 07, 2017, 10:11:51 PM »
Weve seen home wins, weve seen away wins, weve seen team spirit and battling performances, weve seen the fans back on side.  So has he stopped the slide, the rot?  Id say yes.  Would Koeman or another manager?  Who knows?
It absolutely needs to get better, much better, but we now have a feeling of stability.
I dont know if well go up or not, but I do feel he has done a job that may have been too big and too difficult for other less experienced managers.

Are the slide and the rot the same thing?  I'd say not, the slide down to here was a consequence and, like the short-term appointment he is, Bruce has sort of addressed it (but until we're top 2 not fully) but we've seen nothing to suggest what he's doing has addressed the long-term problems of poor scouting/transfers, a style that lives and dies in the managers office and a failure to adapt to a modern approach to the game.

We have no idea whether a different style of manager would've done better or worse and we have no idea whether the 'stability' that you believe he's provided is real but given it's been built around a lot of players who are closing in on retirement I suspect it's just set us up for another 'transition' next summer (or the one after at best).