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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 316460 times)

Offline KevinGage

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #750 on: February 22, 2017, 02:48:00 PM »
My instinct is still to tough it out and give him this season at least. His own ineptitude might force a decision before that, of course.

If we get through to the summer and he has only scraped survival despite having one of the best squads in the league, I'd see no argument to keep him on in that scenario.

But at least then we would have a bigger pool to pick from when it comes to a replacement. Carvalhal at Wednesday is well used to dealing with a basketcase club with big expectations.  He has had Wednesday in the shake-up for the play-offs for the past two seasons after years of shite. Monk is doing well at the mother of all basketcase outfits.  Both have  managed to do this with without resorting to eye-bleeding football as per Rowett or our own spoofer boof baller Bruce.  Wagner looked the most intriguing option back in October and we did show interest apparently.  Not all of them will be able to squeak up via the play-offs this year.  A full pre season with us and a chance to mould a team exactly as they see fit with the resources we offer might still hold some appeal.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:52:50 PM by KevinGage »

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #751 on: February 22, 2017, 02:57:33 PM »
I think we definitely got a bounce under Bruce. My major problem with him at the time was that he didn't seem to be doing anything to ensure that bounce became our new norm rather than just a short term effect.  That's why the poor football and scrapped victories had me worried, it just felt like it was built on sand.

say that we are backing a decent manager, and that is what I believe we should do with Bruce.

The thing is what evidence is there that he's a decent manager FOR US?  His record previously was ok (but not as good as some people on here seem to believe) and that made him a simple choice when we went looking for a new manager but there's no job in the world where you'd have a 6 month probation review having missed every target and get away with "but I met them in my last job".  The only record Bruce has which is of interest to me right now is with us, and it doesn't make great reading and is getting worse every week.

Moving on Bruce gets lots of credit for his promotions from this league, which i understand, but a lot of people seme to be missing the fact that he has a lot of relegations to his name as well (and at least one near miss from a 'safe' position).  My concern is that he can talk a team up when things are going well and see them into the play offs and promotion but when things are going badly he has repeatedly struggled to find a way to turn things around.  If we want to focus on his past record then that's the bit that matters right now and it's not inspiring.

Offline oldhill_avfc

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #752 on: February 22, 2017, 03:09:47 PM »
I think we definitely got a bounce under Bruce. My major problem with him at the time was that he didn't seem to be doing anything to ensure that bounce became our new norm rather than just a short term effect.  That's why the poor football and scrapped victories had me worried, it just felt like it was built on sand.

I suspect his plan was to get through to the transfer window and rebuild.  Which in fairness he did well - nobody criticised any of the signings and most thought things were set fair.

The only option now (and I think it's the right one) is to give him to the end of the season to get that team working to the extent where he's won enough credibility to rebuild further in the summer. 

Offline KevinGage

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #753 on: February 22, 2017, 03:12:20 PM »

The thing is what evidence is there that he's a decent manager FOR US?... there's no job in the world where you'd have a 6 month probation review having missed every target and get away with "but I met them in my last job".

Aye. Better managers than Bruce all have at least one blemish on their record.  Mark Hughes has improved most sides he has been at but made a balls of it at QPR. Mourinho followed up his title success with Chelsea in 2015 with last season's annus horribilis.  There wasn't much of an argument to let either continue on that particular trajectory.

Previous success gets you an interview and -maybe- an opportunity.  It shouldn't be a licence to stay in a job and stink the place out indefinitely.

Offline Dave

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #754 on: February 22, 2017, 03:17:07 PM »
I suspect his plan was to get through to the transfer window and rebuild.  Which in fairness he did well - nobody criticised any of the signings and most thought things were set fair.

That's not really true. I was very critical of two of our signings, and I definitely remember not being a lone voice on the matter.

Offline oldhill_avfc

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #755 on: February 22, 2017, 03:20:32 PM »
Which two weren't you keen on?

Offline Dave

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #756 on: February 22, 2017, 03:28:28 PM »
Which two weren't you keen on?

Johnstone (pointless) and Taylor (rubbish)

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #757 on: February 22, 2017, 03:34:49 PM »
I wasn't able to form an opinion on any of them as I don't recall seeing any of them play with the exception of Taylor when was at the Euros.
That can be said about most of our signings in recent seasons, I knew all about Micah Richards and Lescott though.

Offline oldhill_avfc

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #758 on: February 22, 2017, 03:35:13 PM »
Fair enough.

So, shall we say in general most of us were happy with the way he tried to address obvious weaknesses, eg midfield and the lack of goal threat?  And that he could have done better with replacing Gollinini and Amavi?

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #759 on: February 22, 2017, 03:35:23 PM »
Which two weren't you keen on?

Johnstone (pointless) and Taylor (rubbish)

I've not been impressed with Johnstone. I thought both had half decent games the other night though.

Offline gpbarr

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #760 on: February 22, 2017, 04:27:36 PM »
We have done so many things poorly in the past 2 years (post Lambert era) to reach the state we are in, but for me, prominent amongst them is consistently appointing inexperienced managers and/or changing managers at the wrong time.

1. TS was in charge 23 games, spent an awful lot of money in summer 15, and secured just 29% of points available to him. Almost no experience of management, job was far too big for him, found out after a false FA Cup dawn. Almost none of his signings have proven to be value for money.

2. RG was in charge 21 games and given no new players, and secured 19% of points available to him. Appointed mid-season as the club was in virtual free fall. Given no support in the January transfer window (the last vestige of the Lerner era). Undermined by revolt in the dressing room. Inexperienced in British football.   

3. RDM was in charge just 11 games and secured 30% of points available to him. Inexperienced manager (again), and panic button hit too soon given the club desperately needed stabilizing (again).

The thing with SB is that at last we have a manager who has vast experience (both in British football, the PL, and the Championship, and who played at the highest level for likely the best manager in British football). He has been in charge for 21 games of which 16 of those were pre his spending spree in January - he has secured 42% of points available to him.

For me, its nailed on that our general decline will continue if we keep repeating the managerial merry-go-round. Our position is self inflicted - big club, big money, but put into the hands of inexperienced managers who ought never have even been considered (TS, RDM). And the thing is that every time we change manager (particularly after he has brought in a lot of new players), the confidence of the squad takes another hit. Its almost like we can't help shooting ourselves in the foot. 

Fire Bruce now and I genuinely fear we will be relegated again either this or next season. He has to be given the time to change the culture, mold his style onto a squad recently infused with 6-7 key players, and see if it clicks. If it doesn't, then fire him at the end of the season, and give the new man the summer and a pre-season to exert his influence. We cannot change mid-season yet again...   
 

   

Online mr underhill

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #761 on: February 22, 2017, 04:34:50 PM »
we can, and should, if by the time we've played Rotherham we have still not won. For me losing the next two would be enough to say cheerio

Offline Dave

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #762 on: February 22, 2017, 04:48:03 PM »
Our position is self inflicted - big club, big money, but put into the hands of inexperienced managers who ought never have even been considered (TS, RDM).

At what point do you consider a manager to stop being "inexperienced"?

I'd probably go with a fair while earlier than Di Matteo's 220+ matches.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #763 on: February 22, 2017, 04:51:07 PM »
Fire Bruce now and I genuinely fear we will be relegated again either this or next season. He has to be given the time to change the culture, mold his style onto a squad recently infused with 6-7 key players, and see if it clicks. If it doesn't, then fire him at the end of the season, and give the new man the summer and a pre-season to exert his influence. We cannot change mid-season yet again...     

With our squad we shouldn't be worrying about relegation and yet Bruce has us looking over our shoulder and is, week-on-week, dragging us ever closer to the bottom.  I get all the arguments about experience, etc but all of that goes out the window if he can't find a way to turn things around and his current efforts aren't good enough.

I'm now at the point where he can go anytime between now and the summer, he's not done the job he was hired to do and I don't believe keeping him for another season and giving him 2 more transfer windows will be for the good of the club in the long term.  When he was hired I wanted us to take a longer term view and hire someone to be involved in a steady rebuild of the entire club, Bruce will not do that and the best he can offer is to create a workman-like squad that can push us into the playoffs, I'm very concerned that if we give him 3 windows to do that anyone capable of playing a better standard will have been removed from the squad and we'll just have created an even bigger job for ourselves in the future.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #764 on: February 22, 2017, 05:00:47 PM »
Our position is self inflicted - big club, big money, but put into the hands of inexperienced managers who ought never have even been considered (TS, RDM).

At what point do you consider a manager to stop being "inexperienced"?

I'd probably go with a fair while earlier than Di Matteo's 220+ matches.

and with that comes the term success which in relative terms Di Matteo had. I'm not even talking about the CL stuff, he managed, however he did it, to get West Brom promoted to the PL. So same with Bruce, despite the experience and success in the context of the task at hand, both have been far less than we expected them to be and especially given the resources afforded to both men compared to what they enjoyed at clubs where they secured promotion.