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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 320035 times)

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7185 on: October 15, 2017, 05:31:02 PM »
My concerns are more to do with the coaching than anything else. Does anyone really think that Calderwood and Clemence have what it takes to coach these players sufficiently well to succeed? Who is our attacking coach? From what I saw yesterday whoever it was had the week off.

These are men who have been coached since they were 7. They know how to play football. Managers can be blamed for picking the wrong team or formation or for not making the right substitutions but if an individual fails to perform that is down to him. On the basis of the last few weeks I am putting yesterday down to playing against a team who were better on the day. How we now respond will tell us more than a one off game.

I disagree Chris. Top level football is full of players who say that a certain manager or coach improved their game. Just because they're in their 20s or 30s doesn't mean they can't still improve.

How many players looked great at previous clubs but shit at Villa?

How many players looked shit for us, only for us to ship them out and watch them look great for their new club?

How many players actually improve during their time at the club?

Des is right, there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching.

Our first defeat since 15th August tells you that there is something fundamentally wrong? I think there is a need for some perspective hear. If this is the start of a bad run then there is a reason for concern but at the moment itís one bad result.

It all depends on individual perspectives and standards though.

One person might consider 0-0 home draws to Brentford and Middlesbrough as unacceptable, where someone else would look at the stats and them as a positive, being part of an unbeaten run.

Once again, it seems, those who are unhappy about the Wolves result are extra worried due too the complete capitulation they experienced. The hope that we were finally looking like a team capable of automatic promotion was trampled on, at least for now. The fact that it was a local rival that trod on those hopes makes it feel worse.

I suppose those that get their comfort from stats just won't appreciate that.

Although in that post, not once did you mention the 4 wins on the trot. Why not?

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7186 on: October 15, 2017, 05:39:14 PM »
The situation is that we play eyebleedingly poor football and teams which can play a bit - like wolves yesterday - make us look like relics from times gone by. Yesterday was embarrassing to watch.

At the same time, though, we have lost one in nine (or whatever it is) and that is not going to get any manager the sack.

While results are going well, his job should be safe, to think otherwise would be a bit nuts.

I do think, however, that the quality of football went downhill when Calderwood joined.

I appreciate he's an experienced coach and player, but I don't see in which way that protects them against accusations of doing a bad job.

Offline Villa75

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7187 on: October 15, 2017, 05:40:55 PM »
My concerns are more to do with the coaching than anything else. Does anyone really think that Calderwood and Clemence have what it takes to coach these players sufficiently well to succeed? Who is our attacking coach? From what I saw yesterday whoever it was had the week off.

These are men who have been coached since they were 7. They know how to play football. Managers can be blamed for picking the wrong team or formation or for not making the right substitutions but if an individual fails to perform that is down to him. On the basis of the last few weeks I am putting yesterday down to playing against a team who were better on the day. How we now respond will tell us more than a one off game.

I disagree Chris. Top level football is full of players who say that a certain manager or coach improved their game. Just because they're in their 20s or 30s doesn't mean they can't still improve.

How many players looked great at previous clubs but shit at Villa?

How many players looked shit for us, only for us to ship them out and watch them look great for their new club?

How many players actually improve during their time at the club?

Des is right, there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching.

Our first defeat since 15th August tells you that there is something fundamentally wrong? I think there is a need for some perspective hear. If this is the start of a bad run then there is a reason for concern but at the moment itís one bad result.

It all depends on individual perspectives and standards though.

One person might consider 0-0 home draws to Brentford and Middlesbrough as unacceptable, where someone else would look at the stats and them as a positive, being part of an unbeaten run.

Once again, it seems, those who are unhappy about the Wolves result are extra worried due too the complete capitulation they experienced. The hope that we were finally looking like a team capable of automatic promotion was trampled on, at least for now. The fact that it was a local rival that trod on those hopes makes it feel worse.

I suppose those that get their comfort from stats just won't appreciate that.

Although in that post, not once did you mention the 4 wins on the trot. Why not?

Because they had been mentioned plenty of times over the last 24 hours, whereas the successive 0-0 games that cost us 4 points hadn't.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7188 on: October 15, 2017, 05:41:04 PM »
Calderwood came into to shore up the defence which I suppose has happened for the most part. Especially recently. But it has crushed us as an attacking force. We have rarely played what could be described as entertaining football since he arrived.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7189 on: October 15, 2017, 05:44:21 PM »
Calderwood came into to shore up the defence which I suppose has happened for the most part. Especially recently. But it has crushed us as an attacking force. We have rarely played what could be described as entertaining football since he arrived.

Had we played that in the handful of games under Bruce before he arrived?  Has Bruce ever had a team before he came to us that played that way?

I don't see much evidence of Calderwood improving us but I also don't think blaming him for our inability to create chances against decent sides is particularly accurate.

Offline Marlon From Bearwood

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7190 on: October 15, 2017, 05:47:28 PM »
My concerns are more to do with the coaching than anything else. Does anyone really think that Calderwood and Clemence have what it takes to coach these players sufficiently well to succeed? Who is our attacking coach? From what I saw yesterday whoever it was had the week off.

These are men who have been coached since they were 7. They know how to play football. Managers can be blamed for picking the wrong team or formation or for not making the right substitutions but if an individual fails to perform that is down to him. On the basis of the last few weeks I am putting yesterday down to playing against a team who were better on the day. How we now respond will tell us more than a one off game.

I disagree Chris. Top level football is full of players who say that a certain manager or coach improved their game. Just because they're in their 20s or 30s doesn't mean they can't still improve.

How many players looked great at previous clubs but shit at Villa?

How many players looked shit for us, only for us to ship them out and watch them look great for their new club?

How many players actually improve during their time at the club?

Des is right, there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching.

Our first defeat since 15th August tells you that there is something fundamentally wrong? I think there is a need for some perspective hear. If this is the start of a bad run then there is a reason for concern but at the moment itís one bad result.

A number of regular posters on here think we have comfortably the best squad in the division. If they're right then surely the fact that we've never been in the top 6 and looked light years behind Wolves yesterday must mean there is something wrong with the manager and coaches?

Offline Mister E

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7191 on: October 15, 2017, 05:47:59 PM »
The situation is that we play eyebleedingly poor football and teams which can play a bit - like wolves yesterday - make us look like relics from times gone by. Yesterday was embarrassing to watch.

At the same time, though, we have lost one in nine (or whatever it is) and that is not going to get any manager the sack.

While results are going well, his job should be safe, to think otherwise would be a bit nuts.

I do think, however, that the quality of football went downhill when Calderwood joined.

I appreciate he's an experienced coach and player, but I don't see in which way that protects them against accusations of doing a bad job.
The game has moved on and our current coaching / managerial set-up is not up to it, IMHO.
We are playing teams which - like last season - can game-manage more effectively than our lot can. We are ponderous on possession and slow to respond when not in possession. Our set pieces are generally shocking and there are no tactical highlights in our game.
It's pretty friggin depressing and reminiscent of the worst days of TSM and Lamberk.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7192 on: October 15, 2017, 05:48:32 PM »
Calderwood came into to shore up the defence which I suppose has happened for the most part. Especially recently. But it has crushed us as an attacking force. We have rarely played what could be described as entertaining football since he arrived.

Had we played that in the handful of games under Bruce before he arrived?  Has Bruce ever had a team before he came to us that played that way?

I don't see much evidence of Calderwood improving us but I also don't think blaming him for our inability to create chances against decent sides is particularly accurate.

Iím not suggesting we were Barcelona but Iím pretty sure we became a lot more bland/turgid as a side post Calderwood.

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7193 on: October 15, 2017, 05:49:31 PM »
My concerns are more to do with the coaching than anything else. Does anyone really think that Calderwood and Clemence have what it takes to coach these players sufficiently well to succeed? Who is our attacking coach? From what I saw yesterday whoever it was had the week off.

These are men who have been coached since they were 7. They know how to play football. Managers can be blamed for picking the wrong team or formation or for not making the right substitutions but if an individual fails to perform that is down to him. On the basis of the last few weeks I am putting yesterday down to playing against a team who were better on the day. How we now respond will tell us more than a one off game.

I disagree Chris. Top level football is full of players who say that a certain manager or coach improved their game. Just because they're in their 20s or 30s doesn't mean they can't still improve.

How many players looked great at previous clubs but shit at Villa?

How many players looked shit for us, only for us to ship them out and watch them look great for their new club?

How many players actually improve during their time at the club?

Des is right, there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching.

Our first defeat since 15th August tells you that there is something fundamentally wrong? I think there is a need for some perspective hear. If this is the start of a bad run then there is a reason for concern but at the moment itís one bad result.

It all depends on individual perspectives and standards though.

One person might consider 0-0 home draws to Brentford and Middlesbrough as unacceptable, where someone else would look at the stats and them as a positive, being part of an unbeaten run.

Once again, it seems, those who are unhappy about the Wolves result are extra worried due too the complete capitulation they experienced. The hope that we were finally looking like a team capable of automatic promotion was trampled on, at least for now. The fact that it was a local rival that trod on those hopes makes it feel worse.

I suppose those that get their comfort from stats just won't appreciate that.

Although in that post, not once did you mention the 4 wins on the trot. Why not?

Because they had been mentioned plenty of times over the last 24 hours, whereas the successive 0-0 games that cost us 4 points hadn't.

But you didnt mention them. Just because someone else did, doesnt mean you couldn't. 

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7194 on: October 15, 2017, 05:58:04 PM »
Calderwood came into to shore up the defence which I suppose has happened for the most part. Especially recently. But it has crushed us as an attacking force. We have rarely played what could be described as entertaining football since he arrived.

Had we played that in the handful of games under Bruce before he arrived?  Has Bruce ever had a team before he came to us that played that way?

I don't see much evidence of Calderwood improving us but I also don't think blaming him for our inability to create chances against decent sides is particularly accurate.

Iím not suggesting we were Barcelona but Iím pretty sure we became a lot more bland/turgid as a side post Calderwood.

You might be right but I don't remember watching us and thinking we were looking likely to smash someone.  On top of that our best player in the run when he first arrived was Ayew, who he seemed desperate to get rid of.

Offline Villa75

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7195 on: October 15, 2017, 06:02:38 PM »
My concerns are more to do with the coaching than anything else. Does anyone really think that Calderwood and Clemence have what it takes to coach these players sufficiently well to succeed? Who is our attacking coach? From what I saw yesterday whoever it was had the week off.

These are men who have been coached since they were 7. They know how to play football. Managers can be blamed for picking the wrong team or formation or for not making the right substitutions but if an individual fails to perform that is down to him. On the basis of the last few weeks I am putting yesterday down to playing against a team who were better on the day. How we now respond will tell us more than a one off game.

I disagree Chris. Top level football is full of players who say that a certain manager or coach improved their game. Just because they're in their 20s or 30s doesn't mean they can't still improve.

How many players looked great at previous clubs but shit at Villa?

How many players looked shit for us, only for us to ship them out and watch them look great for their new club?

How many players actually improve during their time at the club?

Des is right, there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching.

Our first defeat since 15th August tells you that there is something fundamentally wrong? I think there is a need for some perspective hear. If this is the start of a bad run then there is a reason for concern but at the moment itís one bad result.

It all depends on individual perspectives and standards though.

One person might consider 0-0 home draws to Brentford and Middlesbrough as unacceptable, where someone else would look at the stats and them as a positive, being part of an unbeaten run.

Once again, it seems, those who are unhappy about the Wolves result are extra worried due too the complete capitulation they experienced. The hope that we were finally looking like a team capable of automatic promotion was trampled on, at least for now. The fact that it was a local rival that trod on those hopes makes it feel worse.

I suppose those that get their comfort from stats just won't appreciate that.

Although in that post, not once did you mention the 4 wins on the trot. Why not?

Because they had been mentioned plenty of times over the last 24 hours, whereas the successive 0-0 games that cost us 4 points hadn't.

But you didnt mention them. Just because someone else did, doesnt mean you couldn't.

Perhaps, because the two 0-0 home draws before, the cup capitulation in between, and the embarrassment yesterday, has taken the shine off them for me. Not to mention the 12 months and 50 odd games of, mostly, turgid football under Bruce.

I can see though, if taken in complete isolation, how those four wins may excite some.

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7196 on: October 15, 2017, 06:06:25 PM »
Strangely enough yes, I do get excited by four straight wins. I guess my standards just aren't high enough.

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7197 on: October 15, 2017, 06:07:03 PM »
My concerns are more to do with the coaching than anything else. Does anyone really think that Calderwood and Clemence have what it takes to coach these players sufficiently well to succeed? Who is our attacking coach? From what I saw yesterday whoever it was had the week off.

These are men who have been coached since they were 7. They know how to play football. Managers can be blamed for picking the wrong team or formation or for not making the right substitutions but if an individual fails to perform that is down to him. On the basis of the last few weeks I am putting yesterday down to playing against a team who were better on the day. How we now respond will tell us more than a one off game.

I disagree Chris. Top level football is full of players who say that a certain manager or coach improved their game. Just because they're in their 20s or 30s doesn't mean they can't still improve.

How many players looked great at previous clubs but shit at Villa?

How many players looked shit for us, only for us to ship them out and watch them look great for their new club?

How many players actually improve during their time at the club?

Des is right, there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching.

Our first defeat since 15th August tells you that there is something fundamentally wrong? I think there is a need for some perspective hear. If this is the start of a bad run then there is a reason for concern but at the moment itís one bad result.

It all depends on individual perspectives and standards though.

One person might consider 0-0 home draws to Brentford and Middlesbrough as unacceptable, where someone else would look at the stats and them as a positive, being part of an unbeaten run.

Once again, it seems, those who are unhappy about the Wolves result are extra worried due too the complete capitulation they experienced. The hope that we were finally looking like a team capable of automatic promotion was trampled on, at least for now. The fact that it was a local rival that trod on those hopes makes it feel worse.

I suppose those that get their comfort from stats just won't appreciate that.

Although in that post, not once did you mention the 4 wins on the trot. Why not?

Because they had been mentioned plenty of times over the last 24 hours, whereas the successive 0-0 games that cost us 4 points hadn't.

But you didnt mention them. Just because someone else did, doesnt mean you couldn't.

Perhaps, because the two 0-0 home draws before, the cup capitulation in between, and the embarrassment yesterday, has taken the shine off them for me. Not to mention the 12 months and 50 odd games of, mostly, turgid football under Bruce.

I can see though, if taken in complete isolation, how those four wins may excite some.

I can also see why 7th in the table, a point off the play offs and 5 points off second place in October might excite others.

Offline Villa75

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7198 on: October 15, 2017, 06:16:42 PM »
Strangely enough yes, I do get excited by four straight wins. I guess my standards just aren't high enough.

Possibly. Not necessarily your fault though.

Most of us are accepting of things we wouldn't have accepted years ago. More than that in fact. Some actually defend things like a comprehensive defeat to local rivals.

Four wins on the trott though in the 2nd division, eh? The things dreams are made of. Perhaps it will happen again next season?

Offline eamonn

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #7199 on: October 15, 2017, 06:23:37 PM »
Calderwood came into to shore up the defence which I suppose has happened for the most part. Especially recently. But it has crushed us as an attacking force. We have rarely played what could be described as entertaining football since he arrived.

Had we played that in the handful of games under Bruce before he arrived?  Has Bruce ever had a team before he came to us that played that way?

I don't see much evidence of Calderwood improving us but I also don't think blaming him for our inability to create chances against decent sides is particularly accurate.

Iím not suggesting we were Barcelona but Iím pretty sure we became a lot more bland/turgid as a side post Calderwood.

You might be right but I don't remember watching us and thinking we were looking likely to smash someone.  On top of that our best player in the run when he first arrived was Ayew, who he seemed desperate to get rid of.

Bruce managed us without Calderwood for about a month - ironically our best performance was the game before Calderwood joined, against the team we nicked him off, Brighton.
Our games under Bruce pre-Calderwood were the Wolves home match when we were as outplayed as we were last night, but managed to take a point - and given Bruce had only had a day or two to work with the players, you could argue he be absolved for any result/performance from that game. The following matches saw Bruce's first winning run - two functional wins, at home to Fulham and Blackburn, a dogged last-gasp penalty win at Reading, and a draw away to Blose when, instead of going for the throat 1-0 up, we sat back and left with the point that Bruce probably aimed for before the game.
A year on and it's still much the same, struggle to impose on teams at home and, away at tricky teams, set-up to be difficult to break-down and hope for counter-attacks. The recent goal glut in the two away games to Burton and Barnsley very welcome, but not exactly typical of us.