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Re: Other Games - 2017/18 by Axl Rose
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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 318006 times)

Offline Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6855 on: September 24, 2017, 07:02:21 PM »
Weren't MON's Leicester and Villa sides both known for conceding possession and hitting on the break? Resulting in both teams having decent away records but less than spectacular home records. The successful Forest side MON played in also conceded possession and hit teams on the break.

Offline VillaAlways

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6856 on: September 24, 2017, 07:05:50 PM »
Points won in games with the minority of possession 11pts
points won in games with the majority of possession 2 pts

It's deffo a Brucie plan. If he takes it to its logical conclusion we could be in the CL league and not touch the ball all game.
I really don't understand your obsession with possession stats ! I'd understand it more if we were losing games, but we're unbeaten in 6.It just looks like moaning for the sake of it.
Take a look at Leicesters possession stats when they won the league. I'm pretty sure their fans weren't bothered

well i think its interesting. Leeds for example have got 10 points from games with the majority of possession with most of them earned at home which sort of makes sense - you have less of the ball away from home traditionally.. We're the exact opposite. And i'm sorry Leicester may be a good example  of limited possession winning games but the football isn't. Bruce's Villa, like all his sides are awful to watch
We're improving that's all I'm bothered about.

Offline Monty

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6857 on: September 24, 2017, 07:18:22 PM »
Mourinho and Guardiola have won leagues and Champions Leagues with possession stats all over the place. It's not just crudely about how much of the ball you have - it's about having a plan for taking the lead, a plan for keeping it, and a plan for coming back from behind.

Online ciggiesnbeer

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6858 on: September 24, 2017, 07:20:55 PM »
Points won in games with the minority of possession 11pts
points won in games with the majority of possession 2 pts

It's deffo a Brucie plan. If he takes it to its logical conclusion we could be in the CL league and not touch the ball all game.
I really don't understand your obsession with possession stats ! I'd understand it more if we were losing games, but we're unbeaten in 6.It just looks like moaning for the sake of it.
Take a look at Leicesters possession stats when they won the league. I'm pretty sure their fans weren't bothered

well i think its interesting. Leeds for example have got 10 points from games with the majority of possession with most of them earned at home which sort of makes sense - you have less of the ball away from home traditionally.. We're the exact opposite. And i'm sorry Leicester may be a good example  of limited possession winning games but the football isn't. Bruce's Villa, like all his sides are awful to watch

Agreed. I would also say that very fast counter attacking football can of course be very skillfull and exciting. Bruce has even managed it a couple of times.

But playing like that all the time, particularly against lesser opposition is just asking for trouble. Why surrender possession all the time and give the opposition the opportunity to score? Even with the leagues best central defence (which I would argue we have) you are rolling the dice, in addition to tiring yourself out as you chase the damn ball leaving you knackered for when you get the opportunity to counter attack making them less effective.

So yeah you are right, yes possession matters, it matters a lot. we absolutley need to have that ability to take control over a match in our locker.

Offline VillaAlways

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6859 on: September 24, 2017, 07:22:27 PM »
Mourinho and Guardiola have won leagues and Champions Leagues with possession stats all over the place. It's not just crudely about how much of the ball you have - it's about having a plan for taking the lead, a plan for keeping it, and a plan for coming back from behind.
In a nutshell

Offline Lsvilla

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6860 on: September 24, 2017, 07:30:53 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

Offline Matt Collins

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6861 on: September 24, 2017, 07:44:30 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

Retaining possession is a good defensive tactic though too. Far easier and less demanding than having to chase the ball.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6862 on: September 24, 2017, 07:47:31 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

The heatmaps for the midfielders and full backs are the key for me.  it's very rare that the team who get their fullbacks and midfield higher up the pitch finish on the losing side.

Offline LeeB

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6863 on: September 24, 2017, 08:27:35 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

The heatmaps for the midfielders and full backs are the key for me.  it's very rare that the team who get their fullbacks and midfield higher up the pitch finish on the losing side.

I give you Paul Lambert and his lonely fullbacks, constantly caught out higher up the pitch.

Offline Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6864 on: September 24, 2017, 09:02:48 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

The heatmaps for the midfielders and full backs are the key for me.  it's very rare that the team who get their fullbacks and midfield higher up the pitch finish on the losing side.

I give you Paul Lambert and his lonely fullbacks, constantly caught out higher up the pitch.



Any negative spin that includes the name Paul Lambert is the exception to the rule.

He got his coaching badges in Germany you know.

Offline aj2k77

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6865 on: September 24, 2017, 09:17:54 PM »
Whoscored.com do heat maps of players positions when they touch the ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1192399/Live/England-Championship-2017-2018-Aston-Villa-Nottingham-Forest

In general their midfielders are more advanced than ours and they use both fullbacks supporting whilst we predominately use the right back.  Their center backs had twice as much of the ball as ours in a slightly more advanced position but their two center backs tended to eventually go long much more than ours did.

Elmo plays long balls far too much and gives it away.

Offline LeeB

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6866 on: September 24, 2017, 09:19:28 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

The heatmaps for the midfielders and full backs are the key for me.  it's very rare that the team who get their fullbacks and midfield higher up the pitch finish on the losing side.

I give you Paul Lambert and his lonely fullbacks, constantly caught out higher up the pitch.



Any negative spin that includes the name Paul Lambert is the exception to the rule.

He got his coaching badges in Germany you know.

From the German Christmas market more like.

Offline Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6867 on: September 24, 2017, 09:23:56 PM »
I've always thought that a heatmap of where the ball is would be a better measure of the 'balance' of a game i.e: passing the ball endlessly in your own half may look impressive when you have high possession stats but is about as likely to get you a goal as one of Tonev's shots. Even better an algorithm (they seem popular at the minute) combining possession and location would seem to be better. Or we could just stick to giving the points to the team that scores the most goals.

The heatmaps for the midfielders and full backs are the key for me.  it's very rare that the team who get their fullbacks and midfield higher up the pitch finish on the losing side.

I give you Paul Lambert and his lonely fullbacks, constantly caught out higher up the pitch.



Any negative spin that includes the name Paul Lambert is the exception to the rule.

He got his coaching badges in Germany you know.

From the German Christmas market more like.



An old mate of mine from back in the eighties used to back up his opinion of Dead Or Alive being the greatest band ever by pointing out how popular they were in Japan. It is the musical equivalent of people defending Lambert because of his German 'credentials'. If any German does wax lyrical about him remember they all think the greatest rock star ever is David Hasselhoff.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 09:26:16 PM by Damo70 »

Offline olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6868 on: September 24, 2017, 09:34:16 PM »
From the German Christmas market more like.
That nearly made me spill a mouthful of  coffee... but come to think of it  I remember the badge round his neck with words "Ich liebe Taktik"

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6869 on: September 24, 2017, 09:34:38 PM »
Weren't MON's Leicester and Villa sides both known for conceding possession and hitting on the break? Resulting in both teams having decent away records but less than spectacular home records. The successful Forest side MON played in also conceded possession and hit teams on the break.

When you have resolute defending, quick outlet players like Ash and Gabby or a strong front man like Carew, aligned with quickness of thought from the likes of Barry getting the ball up to them, you can play counter attacking football and be ruthlessly effective.