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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 319964 times)

Offline chrisw1

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6480 on: September 18, 2017, 04:50:28 PM »
I think Bruce has suffered from an embarrassment of riches when previously he's always had to deal with having a smaller squad. Like a kid in a sweet shop, he's filled him fat gob with everything in front of him and after vomiting performances he's hopefully realised he has to pick and mix more carefully.

He has a squad of 33 when even managers like Mourinho set out to have 24 or 25. Bruce can't be blamed completely for the squad size but he's fully responsible for not choosing his favourites and getting them to work. If Billy Bunter really does think fans are hysterical based on his record at Villa Park he's not the right manager for us and should step aside for somebody more capable of dealing with the expections of managing a club our size.

Like hardly any manager we've had in years has you mean?

Maybe (very big IF type of maybe) he'll grow into it.

My question to that would be if you're happy to have  manager that grows into things would you pick a 56 year old who's main reason for being on the list is that he's experienced.  What value is there to that experience if he still needs 11 months of learning on the job to realise things that anyone on this forum could've pointing out to him at Christmas?  At what point do we look at the squad and question the results are coming just because we have a good squad rather than because of anything Bruce is doing?
I you're going to blame the defeats on Bruce it's a bit daft to then say but if we win it's nothing to do with him.  It almost sounds like you don't really like him Paul?

Offline Villa75

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6481 on: September 18, 2017, 04:57:10 PM »
Having supported Villa since 1975, I can honestly say Bruce has served up, on a consistent basis, the worse football I have seen us play.

We have the very occasional 'decent' performance - as does any poor team - but the vast majority has been eye bleedingly bad. And that's in Division bloody 2!


Offline Drummond

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6482 on: September 18, 2017, 05:05:23 PM »
Having supported Villa since 1975, I can honestly say Bruce has served up, on a consistent basis, the worse football I have seen us play.

We have the very occasional 'decent' performance - as does any poor team - but the vast majority has been eye bleedingly bad. And that's in Division bloody 2!

Turner, McNeill, Lambert, McLeish

Offline olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6483 on: September 18, 2017, 05:15:27 PM »
Lambert, McLeish and even O'Neil's brand of football was painful but nothing  surpasses what we have had since October last year and others managed us in the Premier League. However I will still take the pain if he conjures up another 20+ wins this season.

Offline Drummond

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6484 on: September 18, 2017, 05:18:38 PM »
I think Bruce has suffered from an embarrassment of riches when previously he's always had to deal with having a smaller squad. Like a kid in a sweet shop, he's filled him fat gob with everything in front of him and after vomiting performances he's hopefully realised he has to pick and mix more carefully.

He has a squad of 33 when even managers like Mourinho set out to have 24 or 25. Bruce can't be blamed completely for the squad size but he's fully responsible for not choosing his favourites and getting them to work. If Billy Bunter really does think fans are hysterical based on his record at Villa Park he's not the right manager for us and should step aside for somebody more capable of dealing with the expections of managing a club our size.

Like hardly any manager we've had in years has you mean?

Maybe (very big IF type of maybe) he'll grow into it.

My question to that would be if you're happy to have  manager that grows into things would you pick a 56 year old who's main reason for being on the list is that he's experienced.  What value is there to that experience if he still needs 11 months of learning on the job to realise things that anyone on this forum could've pointing out to him at Christmas?  At what point do we look at the squad and question the results are coming just because we have a good squad rather than because of anything Bruce is doing?

Mine to that would be are you happy to keep twisting every time it doesn't go the way we want? I mean look at the number of managers we've had all with different styles, methods and ideas. This one has a proven track record of getting promoted from the division, and he's struggling, even with the resources at his disposal. Doesn't that tell you that the problem is far more deep-rooted? That we have major systemic failure? If he goes, who replaces him? There are loads of ideas, you've seen the thread, bu they are all different, are we going to start all over again?

The Villa Engine is an absolute necessity for us because we've been a ramshackle barmpot of a club for a decade or more. Swansea and Southampton are much like the Liverpool of old; build a system and train all of the players to play that way. Liverpool are putting something in place right now to go back to it. They realise you need consistency in order to achieve. When the system is right, you can afford to change manager and bring someone in as the network around them works. Both those clubs have developed players that have gone on to do really well.

Manchester United (who I seem to go back to a lot unfortunately) had a solid manager and system and freshened it up with new 1st Team coaches. It's so important to be able to identify who we are and what we do. There have been that many players in and out of the club over the years (unfortunately not enough out) that there's no style, no system and no clear plan.

It's not an overnight job to fix, it takes months or years to embed a culture.

Steve Bruce clearly gets on with Wyness, I presume with Round too, and frankly Round's background seems legit enough to trust him, Wyness' too because Everton punched above their weight for a long time.

We're a big club and need the right mentality, we need to be together, the question is do we have the bottle? My vote is currently set for him to go, but I'd love him to prove me wrong, win the remainder of our games and for us to go up as champions. I guess I lost my bottle with it having seen the mess against Boro.

Offline Drummond

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6485 on: September 18, 2017, 05:25:48 PM »
Oh, and we just need to score some bloody goals and play more attacking football to go along with this defensive solidity. He and the squad need to grow a pair (each).

Offline Villa75

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6486 on: September 18, 2017, 05:27:43 PM »
Having supported Villa since 1975, I can honestly say Bruce has served up, on a consistent basis, the worse football I have seen us play.

We have the very occasional 'decent' performance - as does any poor team - but the vast majority has been eye bleedingly bad. And that's in Division bloody 2!

Turner, McNeill, Lambert, McLeish

Nowhere near as consistently bad as this, for so long. The 'football' is terrible and we're not even playing PL clubs.

For a direct comparison imagine, if you can, Bruce 2016/17 football in the top division. He can't even be bothered to play expansive, attacking football in this division against some real dross. I dread this think what he would dish up in the PL.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6487 on: September 18, 2017, 05:50:04 PM »
I think Bruce has suffered from an embarrassment of riches when previously he's always had to deal with having a smaller squad. Like a kid in a sweet shop, he's filled him fat gob with everything in front of him and after vomiting performances he's hopefully realised he has to pick and mix more carefully.

He has a squad of 33 when even managers like Mourinho set out to have 24 or 25. Bruce can't be blamed completely for the squad size but he's fully responsible for not choosing his favourites and getting them to work. If Billy Bunter really does think fans are hysterical based on his record at Villa Park he's not the right manager for us and should step aside for somebody more capable of dealing with the expections of managing a club our size.

Like hardly any manager we've had in years has you mean?

Maybe (very big IF type of maybe) he'll grow into it.

My question to that would be if you're happy to have  manager that grows into things would you pick a 56 year old who's main reason for being on the list is that he's experienced.  What value is there to that experience if he still needs 11 months of learning on the job to realise things that anyone on this forum could've pointing out to him at Christmas?  At what point do we look at the squad and question the results are coming just because we have a good squad rather than because of anything Bruce is doing?
I you're going to blame the defeats on Bruce it's a bit daft to then say but if we win it's nothing to do with him.  It almost sounds like you don't really like him Paul?

It's not about liking him or not but I'm not surprised that you'd suggest that because I don't think you've ever understood why I don't think he's the right manager for us.  I have no opinion on him either way as a person but as a manager I thought he was a knee-jerk appointment that failed and the people responsible for it have spent the last few months trying to repackage him as modern, thoughtful manager who they can use to build a long-term plan around despite there being nothing in his CV to suggest he's got any idea how to be that.

Last season I accepted him before Chirstmas other than stating that he needed to go to places like Blues and Leeds and try to win if he was going to get us into the playoffs.  Where he lost me was when he had 10 games without a win over Christmas and January which made it impossible for us to make the play offs and it got brushed aside.  When he repeated that same trick at the end of last season and the start of this one it just served to reinforce the fact that, for me, he doesn't know how to approach games when the expectation is to play to win every week.

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6488 on: September 18, 2017, 05:52:31 PM »
We've been awful in some games under Bruce, I don't think anyone would disagree with that but not very long ago, we were getting beat by lower league teams in the early rounds of the cup and let's not forget losing over two legs to League Two Bradford. I don't think it's any worse now.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6489 on: September 18, 2017, 05:56:45 PM »
We have had managers in the past as bad as Bruce.  The likes of Vic Crowe (with mitigating circumstances), Tommy Docherty and Tommy Cummings.  However, to keep that in perspective,  we the hysterical fans had to put our hands in our pockets to find the 100k to buy Bruce Rioch.  When the amount of money Bruce has had and the level of opposition his teams have played, are taken into account, as of this day he must be the worst.  He may well get better at his job.  For the club's sake I hope he does.

Offline Simon Page

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6490 on: September 18, 2017, 06:00:45 PM »
It feels like a continuation of the same downward trajectory throughout this decade. We've gradually got worse and I don't think what we have now has reversed that trend given what division we're in. This is deeply worrying when you think what we've spent and the changes throughout the club over that time. As for Bruce, I don't think he's the right manager but all the time he's here I'll want him to show me I'm wrong.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6491 on: September 18, 2017, 06:07:12 PM »
Mine to that would be are you happy to keep twisting every time it doesn't go the way we want? I mean look at the number of managers we've had all with different styles, methods and ideas. This one has a proven track record of getting promoted from the division, and he's struggling, even with the resources at his disposal. Doesn't that tell you that the problem is far more deep-rooted? That we have major systemic failure? If he goes, who replaces him? There are loads of ideas, you've seen the thread, bu they are all different, are we going to start all over again?

The Villa Engine is an absolute necessity for us because we've been a ramshackle barmpot of a club for a decade or more. Swansea and Southampton are much like the Liverpool of old; build a system and train all of the players to play that way. Liverpool are putting something in place right now to go back to it. They realise you need consistency in order to achieve. When the system is right, you can afford to change manager and bring someone in as the network around them works. Both those clubs have developed players that have gone on to do really well.

Manchester United (who I seem to go back to a lot unfortunately) had a solid manager and system and freshened it up with new 1st Team coaches. It's so important to be able to identify who we are and what we do. There have been that many players in and out of the club over the years (unfortunately not enough out) that there's no style, no system and no clear plan.

It's not an overnight job to fix, it takes months or years to embed a culture.

Steve Bruce clearly gets on with Wyness, I presume with Round too, and frankly Round's background seems legit enough to trust him, Wyness' too because Everton punched above their weight for a long time.

We're a big club and need the right mentality, we need to be together, the question is do we have the bottle? My vote is currently set for him to go, but I'd love him to prove me wrong, win the remainder of our games and for us to go up as champions. I guess I lost my bottle with it having seen the mess against Boro.

If you going to say we need to reach a point where we stick rather than twisting you have to be sure that your doing it with a decent hand, I've seen little to suggest Bruce is that.

Why I asked about whether the results are in spite of him is that on Saturday we played Adomah on the left wing and Davis up front and those 2 were (seemingly) the difference between a comfortable 3-0 win and a huff and puff with no end product draw but neither of them are players he had anywhere near the first team until injuries forced his hand.

I agree that the problem is more deep-rooted, it's that for some reason we seem to consistently pick the wrong manager for the situation we're in.  Bruce as a manager to make a yo-yo club out of an average championship club is fine, he'd be a good choice for a few of the clubs above us or even a few towards the bottom of the premier league but at a club that expects to win this league and expected the play offs last season he is just far too cautious.

The villa engine is one of the main reasons I don't want him to stay, if you watch our reserves or youth games they play a totally different way to the first team, and Bruce has, if anything, been widening that gap.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6492 on: September 18, 2017, 06:10:16 PM »
Agree SP.  Bruce has been given more slack to come good than any of his six predecessors.  He has been willed to succeed by the club and the fans far more than Houllier, McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde and RDM. 

Offline Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6493 on: September 18, 2017, 06:18:56 PM »
Agree SP.  Bruce has been given more slack to come good than any of his six predecessors.  He has been willed to succeed by the club and the fans far more than Houllier, McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde and RDM. 

Lambert got a lot of slack and that's despite those disastrous defeats by lower league clubs that I mentioned earlier.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #6494 on: September 18, 2017, 06:27:25 PM »
Agree SP.  Bruce has been given more slack to come good than any of his six predecessors.  He has been willed to succeed by the club and the fans far more than Houllier, McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde and RDM. 

Lambert got a lot of slack and that's despite those disastrous defeats by lower league clubs that I mentioned earlier.

I think most people accepted Lambert had a hard job because the owner was pulling away and the finances were a mess.  Bruce really doesn't have those excuses no matter how much he's tried to create a belief that he's had no money.