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Re: Bruce out? by stuart445
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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 320506 times)

Offline ironmaidenmania

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5805 on: September 11, 2017, 11:55:42 AM »
I'd go with de Boer. He has a way of playing and a plan. Can't be any worse really!

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5806 on: September 11, 2017, 12:02:30 PM »
I'd go with de Boer. He has a way of playing and a plan. Can't be any worse really!

He's just lost 4 straight. Not exactly much of any kind of plan being demonstrated.

Online Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5807 on: September 11, 2017, 12:10:39 PM »
Another season in the 2nd Division over promotion?

If it means eventually going up and staying up. Yes.

I question whether we could afford to strengthen this squad sufficiently to stay up if we get promoted, without putting us into a dangerous financial position.

Another year in the Championship would be more ruinous I reckon.  We're treading on thin ice where FFP is concerned anyway, and I'd be surprised that with the sorts of contracts that the likes of McCormack and Hogan will be on that the loss of parachute money wouldn't seriously hurt us.  At least if you go up, you get a massive increase in income, and can plan wages and player acquisition expenditure accordingly.  That's a lot harder to do when you're contracted to pay player salaries for three years, but then face a massive drop in income.


Get promoted and we have a fortune to spend to strengthen.

Stay down and we have to flog players. I think we all know that means we will only be able to sell the best and have to keep the rest.

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5808 on: September 11, 2017, 12:14:47 PM »
It seems that every game in the foreseeable future could be his last unless the unthinkable happens and we start to put a run of wins together. I have seen nothing that even hints that this is a possibility, so we have yet another manager that is performing under the pressure of imminent dismissal, not good is it.

I think that Bruce will be banking on an uplift in form when Kodjia and Jedinak return, and will have stated this case quite strongly to the powers that be.

I honestly can't see what Jedinak will bring to improve us dramatically other than an extra bit of physicality.  He has a point with Kodjia, but the claims about Jedinak are a little tenuous. 

Jedinak is truly brilliant in the air and because of that neither of the central defenders have to come out and win the ball in the air which will do a lot to fix our shape because Terry doesn't want to do it and Chester isn't physically suited to being a dominating defender.

Agree Paul, but as we saw last season it results in him dropping very deep to do that which means the rest of the midfield drops deep as well.  He won't really bring that much to us going forward, but I have a suspicion that Bruce might go back to three at the back with him in the centre.

Offline Gregorys Boy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5809 on: September 11, 2017, 12:21:40 PM »
Not defending RDM or saying he was great by any means but you could at least sort of see what he was trying to do. We were actually getting into good positions in some games aswell but lapses in concentration late on cost us several times. With Bruce we aren't even getting close to being in winning positions, especially away from home.

Yeah but their just two different approaches.  Bruce has always been a sort of manager to make his teams hard to beat and build from the back.  Considering the shambles we've been defensively in recent seasons and how poor we were at the start of last season then that approach made sense when he first arrived, because it was a way of settling the ship, plus he knew he had a good striker in Kodja who was useful for counter attacking.  But now its gotten to the point where fans should be expecting some better attacking football.

Offline RussellC

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5810 on: September 11, 2017, 12:26:18 PM »
We just don't have the personnel to play 3 at the back. Chester is the only one of our centre-backs who's anywhere near mobile enough to play in one of the wide positions. Unless one of the full-backs could do a job there (perhaps De Laet or Taylor?) or one of the youngsters can do a 'Gareth Barry' then we shouldn't even consider it as an experiment.

It's a shame really, because I really like it as a formation (with suitable players), but if Bruce was even slightly considering it in the summer then you would think that he'd have played it in at least one of the friendlies.

Online Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5811 on: September 11, 2017, 12:27:56 PM »
I thought at the time RDM had been unlucky with missed chances up front and silly mistakes at the back. I didn't really have a problem with our performances. He deserved more time. I thought that then and still do now. Admittedly I was pleased we got Bruce. Ironically, the fact Dr T may think he got rid of RDM too quickly could be what is keeping Bruce in a job.

Offline boozey182

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5812 on: September 11, 2017, 12:34:51 PM »
It seems that every game in the foreseeable future could be his last unless the unthinkable happens and we start to put a run of wins together. I have seen nothing that even hints that this is a possibility, so we have yet another manager that is performing under the pressure of imminent dismissal, not good is it.

I think that Bruce will be banking on an uplift in form when Kodjia and Jedinak return, and will have stated this case quite strongly to the powers that be.

I honestly can't see what Jedinak will bring to improve us dramatically other than an extra bit of physicality.  He has a point with Kodjia, but the claims about Jedinak are a little tenuous. 

Jedinak is truly brilliant in the air and because of that neither of the central defenders have to come out and win the ball in the air which will do a lot to fix our shape because Terry doesn't want to do it and Chester isn't physically suited to being a dominating defender.

Agree Paul, but as we saw last season it results in him dropping very deep to do that which means the rest of the midfield drops deep as well.  He won't really bring that much to us going forward, but I have a suspicion that Bruce might go back to three at the back with him in the centre.

The ludicrous thing about Jedinak improving the team is that our biggest problem last season was that we didn't win enough in the air when he was out or struggling for fitness. Not only have we failed to address this, but we also sold the only other bloke who ever won a header in our half.

The lack of planning this preseason is staggering. Having said that, we still have the best squad in the league, but only if we start bossing games and dictating the way it is played. Let the opposition have the ball up to 40 yards out and we look utterly helpless. It can't be as complicated as we're making it seem.

Offline Gregorys Boy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5813 on: September 11, 2017, 12:42:33 PM »
I thought at the time RDM had been unlucky with missed chances up front and silly mistakes at the back. I didn't really have a problem with our performances. He deserved more time. I thought that then and still do now. Admittedly I was pleased we got Bruce. Ironically, the fact Dr T may think he got rid of RDM too quickly could be what is keeping Bruce in a job.

Agree that RDM should have been given a bit longer (11 games is nothing really).  Disagree that he was just unlucky due to us missing chances.  If you look at our dreadful performance in that famous Preston game, you can see that the team are just poorly set up and have no spine.  Preston played through us at will without needing to get out of second gear.  We had no shape.  Another thing that did for RDM was that we spent so much money that summer.  A bit more of a modest budget might have given him a bit longer to get his feet under the table.

Offline Colhint

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5814 on: September 11, 2017, 12:50:48 PM »
Gus Poyet is also available according to the Beeb

Offline ktvillan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5815 on: September 11, 2017, 12:55:38 PM »
I thought at the time RDM had been unlucky with missed chances up front and silly mistakes at the back. I didn't really have a problem with our performances. He deserved more time. I thought that then and still do now. Admittedly I was pleased we got Bruce. Ironically, the fact Dr T may think he got rid of RDM too quickly could be what is keeping Bruce in a job.

Bruce has had 30 odd games and two windows now, way more than RDM was given.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5816 on: September 11, 2017, 12:56:23 PM »
I thought at the time RDM had been unlucky with missed chances up front and silly mistakes at the back. I didn't really have a problem with our performances. He deserved more time. I thought that then and still do now. Admittedly I was pleased we got Bruce. Ironically, the fact Dr T may think he got rid of RDM too quickly could be what is keeping Bruce in a job.

Agree that RDM should have been given a bit longer (11 games is nothing really).  Disagree that he was just unlucky due to us missing chances.  If you look at our dreadful performance in that famous Preston game, you can see that the team are just poorly set up and have no spine.  Preston played through us at will without needing to get out of second gear.  We had no shape.  Another thing that did for RDM was that we spent so much money that summer.  A bit more of a modest budget might have given him a bit longer to get his feet under the table.

I think he quite clearly panicked against Preston (probably because he feared for his job) but before that game we'd generally been good for 80-85 minutes and it was a mental weakness that seemed to keep turning wins into draws and draws into defeats.  If (and it's a big one) he'd got a run of 3-4 wins on the bounce at some point I think we'd have improved massively.

I do understand why he was sacked and I understood (but didn't agree with) the choice of replacement but as I said at the time, and have never changed my view on, the only point in going for someone like Bruce was if he could turn things around quickly and get us into the playoffs and that's what he should have been judged on. As soon as it became clear he couldn't deliver that we should have started planning for a manager to start the proper rebuilding process.

We could've realistically started that in February even if the manager change didn't happen until later.  All we really did by giving him the summer and delaying things was put ourselves into a position where we would need his inevitable replacement to hit the ground running with no options to add the squad for months and limit our options because managers don't like to leave clubs early in the season.

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5817 on: September 11, 2017, 12:59:12 PM »
We just don't have the personnel to play 3 at the back. Chester is the only one of our centre-backs who's anywhere near mobile enough to play in one of the wide positions. Unless one of the full-backs could do a job there (perhaps De Laet or Taylor?) or one of the youngsters can do a 'Gareth Barry' then we shouldn't even consider it as an experiment.

It's a shame really, because I really like it as a formation (with suitable players), but if Bruce was even slightly considering it in the summer then you would think that he'd have played it in at least one of the friendlies.

He started with it in the last away game and I think it has always been on his mind.  The problem he has got is that I think he wants to play two up front, but can't work out a way to do that with a back four in place.  I agree about your comments about mobile defenders in the outside positions of the back three.  Chester has done it well for Wales over the past few seasons, but Ben Davies has been used on the other side.  Taylor has played as a wing-back which doesn't really suit him.   

Offline olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5818 on: September 11, 2017, 01:01:33 PM »
Well De Boer is available now having been given the sack at Palace
Yes. Palace have ideas above their station bunch of classless twats. Tony do not let DeBoer leave England grab him pdq.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 01:05:00 PM by olaftab »

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5819 on: September 11, 2017, 01:03:50 PM »
I thought at the time RDM had been unlucky with missed chances up front and silly mistakes at the back. I didn't really have a problem with our performances. He deserved more time. I thought that then and still do now. Admittedly I was pleased we got Bruce. Ironically, the fact Dr T may think he got rid of RDM too quickly could be what is keeping Bruce in a job.

Agree that RDM should have been given a bit longer (11 games is nothing really).  Disagree that he was just unlucky due to us missing chances.  If you look at our dreadful performance in that famous Preston game, you can see that the team are just poorly set up and have no spine.  Preston played through us at will without needing to get out of second gear.  We had no shape.  Another thing that did for RDM was that we spent so much money that summer.  A bit more of a modest budget might have given him a bit longer to get his feet under the table.

I think he quite clearly panicked against Preston (probably because he feared for his job) but before that game we'd generally been good for 80-85 minutes and it was a mental weakness that seemed to keep turning wins into draws and draws into defeats.  If (and it's a big one) he'd got a run of 3-4 wins on the bounce at some point I think we'd have improved massively.

I do understand why he was sacked and I understood (but didn't agree with) the choice of replacement but as I said at the time, and have never changed my view on, the only point in going for someone like Bruce was if he could turn things around quickly and get us into the playoffs and that's what he should have been judged on. As soon as it became clear he couldn't deliver that we should have started planning for a manager to start the proper rebuilding process.

We could've realistically started that in February even if the manager change didn't happen until later.  All we really did by giving him the summer and delaying things was put ourselves into a position where we would need his inevitable replacement to hit the ground running with no options to add the squad for months and limit our options because managers don't like to leave clubs early in the season.

The thing I found strange with RDM was that he just gave the impression in interviews and through his body language that he wasn't particularly interested.  Although we had been relegated, there was quite a bit of optimism around and he got a fair bit of money to spend.  I expected him to be motivated and enthusiastic, but he appeared anything but that.