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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 316836 times)

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5385 on: August 31, 2017, 09:00:18 AM »
I have never concealed my contempt for the way Remi Garde was treated.  My enthusiasm for him was not so much as a manager though his CV was as good as any other manager we appointed post Houllier.  It was because we seemed to have a thought our plan.  We recruited a young, multi lingual manager and we seemed committed to finding reasonably priced continental players as opposed to old British over priced, over rated has beens.  But he got three and a bit months in the snake pit and was shown the door.

Okay, Garde did not work out but what replaced him was regression to Shoot! comic management.  Run through brick walls for the shirt approach to coaching and management.  The grunt and groan, thud and blunder of old sweats in a war of attrition against Championship opposition.  Such an approach is as out of date as Thunderboots Roy Race.  We are adrift in a sea of old school management driven by the assembly of a squad without an overall plan.  It started as a trolley dash and is now a final rummage in the remainders at the check out.  Whatever plan we come up with, there has to be a plan.  We cannot keep going round in circles.

Offline VinnieChase84

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5386 on: August 31, 2017, 09:13:33 AM »
Huge month coming up. Anything short of 14 points from our games and he's gone imo

Offline Allan C

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5387 on: August 31, 2017, 09:14:44 AM »
I have never concealed my contempt for the way Remi Garde was treated.  My enthusiasm for him was not so much as a manager though his CV was as good as any other manager we appointed post Houllier.  It was because we seemed to have a thought our plan.  We recruited a young, multi lingual manager and we seemed committed to finding reasonably priced continental players as opposed to old British over priced, over rated has beens.  But he got three and a bit months in the snake pit and was shown the door.

Okay, Garde did not work out but what replaced him was regression to Shoot! comic management.  Run through brick walls for the shirt approach to coaching and management.  The grunt and groan, thud and blunder of old sweats in a war of attrition against Championship opposition.  Such an approach is as out of date as Thunderboots Roy Race.  We are adrift in a sea of old school management driven by the assembly of a squad without an overall plan.  It started as a trolley dash and is now a final rummage in the remainders at the check out.  Whatever plan we come up with, there has to be a plan.  We cannot keep going round in circles.
Great post which sums up how I feel. I would like to have seen how Garde would have managed now given the support from the club that Bruce has received.

Offline The Edge

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5388 on: August 31, 2017, 09:24:50 AM »
Pick us a pumpkin, draw a face on it, place it on the bench at Villa Park and it will do a better job than what Bruce has cobbled together so far.
Not a fan then?

Offline VILLA MOLE

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5389 on: August 31, 2017, 09:29:41 AM »
I have never concealed my contempt for the way Remi Garde was treated.  My enthusiasm for him was not so much as a manager though his CV was as good as any other manager we appointed post Houllier.  It was because we seemed to have a thought our plan.  We recruited a young, multi lingual manager and we seemed committed to finding reasonably priced continental players as opposed to old British over priced, over rated has beens.  But he got three and a bit months in the snake pit and was shown the door.

Okay, Garde did not work out but what replaced him was regression to Shoot! comic management.  Run through brick walls for the shirt approach to coaching and management.  The grunt and groan, thud and blunder of old sweats in a war of attrition against Championship opposition.  Such an approach is as out of date as Thunderboots Roy Race.  We are adrift in a sea of old school management driven by the assembly of a squad without an overall plan.  It started as a trolley dash and is now a final rummage in the remainders at the check out.  Whatever plan we come up with, there has to be a plan.  We cannot keep going round in circles.
Great post which sums up how I feel. I would like to have seen how Garde would have managed now given the support from the club that Bruce has received.


I feel Garde was right manager wrong time

Online Dave

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5390 on: August 31, 2017, 09:30:57 AM »
Particularly at this club, where in recent years changing managers has often coincided with things getting worse.

Which one(s) do you feel we should have stuck with longer?

It hardly mattered as whatever we did we got steadily worse, 3 years or 6 months in charge and the net result was the same resulting in an inevitable relegation and then following it up with the laissez faire RDM. It is ironic that a club so inconsistent in everything else managed to consistently pick the wrong manager.

The club have given Bruce the tools to do the job, it is now up to him to use them appropriately. If not then, to coin a phrase, we go again.


The reason I think we have constantly failed with managers over recent years is that the Club hasn't had a strong plan and selected a manager accordingly.  It seems as though it has been get a manager in and let him sort it.  In Lerner's years you would put that down to weak football knowledge in the senior management team.  Also, I think there have been too many people thinking short term about themselves rather than long term for the club.

I agree with that. At least now there appears to be a plan and a structure so if/when Bruce goes the next man should, in theory, have a framework to work within.

What is the plan and structure you think is there, as I'm genuinely baffled by that.  On the playing level, we don't have a recognizable style or ethos, and most of the signings in Elmo, Whelan and Terry are old stop-gaps at the end of their career.  At the business level, I can't see any evidence that anybody is planning for the future or really knows what they're doing, so what is it that I'm missing?

The two times in recent history where there looked like there was a plan was the Lowton / Westwood / Bennett etc plan and a few years later with the Amavi / Ayew / Gueye etc plan.

Obviously they were horribly mismanaged and extremely unsuccessful, but there appeared to be a clear direction that we were going for.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5391 on: August 31, 2017, 09:31:01 AM »
Particularly at this club, where in recent years changing managers has often coincided with things getting worse.

Which one(s) do you feel we should have stuck with longer?

It hardly mattered as whatever we did we got steadily worse, 3 years or 6 months in charge and the net result was the same resulting in an inevitable relegation and then following it up with the laissez faire RDM. It is ironic that a club so inconsistent in everything else managed to consistently pick the wrong manager.

The club have given Bruce the tools to do the job, it is now up to him to use them appropriately. If not then, to coin a phrase, we go again.


The reason I think we have constantly failed with managers over recent years is that the Club hasn't had a strong plan and selected a manager accordingly.  It seems as though it has been get a manager in and let him sort it.  In Lerner's years you would put that down to weak football knowledge in the senior management team.  Also, I think there have been too many people thinking short term about themselves rather than long term for the club.

I agree with that. At least now there appears to be a plan and a structure so if/when Bruce goes the next man should, in theory, have a framework to work within.

What is the plan and structure you think is there, as I'm genuinely baffled by that.  On the playing level, we don't have a recognizable style or ethos, and most of the signings in Elmo, Whelan and Terry are old stop-gaps at the end of their career.  At the business level, I can't see any evidence that anybody is planning for the future or really knows what they're doing, so what is it that I'm missing?

Having the position of Technical Director, as Wyness said a couple of months ago “Steve Round has come in and we have done a complete root and branch overhaul of the club; sports science, recruitment, academy, everything on the football side."

I did say "in theory" as I do not believe that it is something we will see the results from in the short term but it is clearly the sort of forward planning we have lacked for many years.

Offline olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5392 on: August 31, 2017, 09:31:46 AM »
Particularly at this club, where in recent years changing managers has often coincided with things getting worse.

Which one(s) do you feel we should have stuck with longer?

It hardly mattered as whatever we did we got steadily worse, 3 years or 6 months in charge and the net result was the same resulting in an inevitable relegation and then following it up with the laissez faire RDM. It is ironic that a club so inconsistent in everything else managed to consistently pick the wrong manager.

The club have given Bruce the tools to do the job, it is now up to him to use them appropriately. If not then, to coin a phrase, we go again.

Pretty much. Its hard to imagine us making worse (and as expensive) choices. Amazing really.
This is true and baffling. The appointments from Lerner and Xia administrations have equally failed. From McLeish to Bruce it's a sorry state. Why can't we get it right?

Offline ktvillan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5393 on: August 31, 2017, 09:43:23 AM »
Why should any of us be expected to name a ready made replacement, or even a shortlist , just because we can see Bruce is making a hash of things and want something done about it?   Oddly enough my full time non-football related job and other responsibilities make it difficult for me to gain the encyclopaedic knowledge of coaches and managers across Europe and further afield that might allow me to propose a realistic candidate.   Wyness and  Round are full time employees of the club who have, or should have,  the time and resources to do just that.  It's not a cop out to say it's their job because that's exactly what it is.

In that case, let's not bother with putting up a poll on a forum so people can choose who they would like as their next manager when Bruce does eventually go. I mean, why even bother chatting about it if it's not our job to choose who it's going to be?

You're missing the point. No harm at all in chatting about it or having a poll, or proposing new managers if people feel that way inclined.  Ultimately it's not going to make a jot of difference to whoever the club would choose. And rightly so as they have paid "professionals" to make that call. Hence I'm just questioning why some people seem to think it's a necessity to propose the next boss before it's allowed to want Bruce out or changes to be made.   

The same paid professionals who will decide if it is time for a change. By that logic therefore it is not going to make a jot of difference what a few posters say on this site. That does not mean they don't have a right to say it, of course they do, but by the same token others who disagree have the right to question them on it. If you are calling for a fundamental change at the club then you have to be prepared to back up why you think it will improve things. Particularly at this club, where in recent years changing managers has often coincided with things getting worse.

 "You have to be prepared to say why you think it will improve things?"  Says who?  Who put you in charge?  No you don't, nobody does.  And I've no idea why you would think it is a requirement.  Ultimately the results and performances and the points on the board tell the story and it's clear enough just from those that things need to change isn't it?  No-one knows if a change will make things better or worse or change nothing, but the paid professionals ought to have a better idea than all of us what might work, if they are doing their jobs properly. 

So yes, precisely those same paid professionals will have to decide it's time for a change, no-one is disputing that anywhere so I'm not sure why you are even raising it.  I dare say they won't take much if any notice of what's written or said among the fan base but no-one is disputing anyone's right to discuss, dispute and propose alternatives if they choose to - that's part the reason for the existence of chat forums.  The only people I see trying to place parameters on what can and can't be discussed are those, who who seem to be insisting that no-one should do just those things unless they have a ready made alternative to propose.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5394 on: August 31, 2017, 09:49:44 AM »
I think Aftab it is because they are the same in the boardroom as they are on the pitch.  They are basically negative.  They plan for what they don't want to happen not for what can be achieved.  It is like when Lewis Hamilton was told in the last race of the season finish no lower than third and the title is yours.  He scraped third place by a whisker due to a mistake by another driver.  He should have been told to go out and win the race.  If you do not cultivate a winning mentality you get a losing mentality.  There is no middle safe pair of hands route.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5395 on: August 31, 2017, 09:52:30 AM »
Huge month coming up. Anything short of 14 points from our games and he's gone imo

The problem here is that if he gets, for example, 13 points that will be 4 wins and a draw, add the 2 previous league games and that's w5 d2 l1 from 8 and you don't get sacked for that form, especially when you've previously been allowed 10 games without a win and 9 with 1 win.  He'd have to be failing by a much bigger margin than that to get rid of him because the board have allowed him to so much slack with the results.  If we're bottom half at the end of September then I think he'll be nervous but top half and within 3-4 points of the playoffs and he'll limp along untouched and will get more and more time to try to do something more than that, it's exactly the same as Lambert, when the pressure builds get a couple of decent results and everything resets until your next crap run.

Offline sid1964

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5396 on: August 31, 2017, 10:01:18 AM »
Bruce seems to be having a nice holiday in Portugal - he can recharge those batteries, I dread to think what the players are doing who are not on international duty?

Bruce stated that he was DEFINETLY the right man for the job after the Reading defeat, he seems to have his doubts now as his interview after the Bristol City game was "I think that I am the right man"

Hopefully the signing of Snodgrass will be a master stroke - but I have my doubts that he and other Bruce buys will turn us in to an attacking side such as the 76-77 team!

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5397 on: August 31, 2017, 10:14:27 AM »
Particularly at this club, where in recent years changing managers has often coincided with things getting worse.

Which one(s) do you feel we should have stuck with longer?

It hardly mattered as whatever we did we got steadily worse, 3 years or 6 months in charge and the net result was the same resulting in an inevitable relegation and then following it up with the laissez faire RDM. It is ironic that a club so inconsistent in everything else managed to consistently pick the wrong manager.

The club have given Bruce the tools to do the job, it is now up to him to use them appropriately. If not then, to coin a phrase, we go again.


The reason I think we have constantly failed with managers over recent years is that the Club hasn't had a strong plan and selected a manager accordingly.  It seems as though it has been get a manager in and let him sort it.  In Lerner's years you would put that down to weak football knowledge in the senior management team.  Also, I think there have been too many people thinking short term about themselves rather than long term for the club.

I agree with that. At least now there appears to be a plan and a structure so if/when Bruce goes the next man should, in theory, have a framework to work within.

What is the plan and structure you think is there, as I'm genuinely baffled by that.  On the playing level, we don't have a recognizable style or ethos, and most of the signings in Elmo, Whelan and Terry are old stop-gaps at the end of their career.  At the business level, I can't see any evidence that anybody is planning for the future or really knows what they're doing, so what is it that I'm missing?

Totally agree

Offline john e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5398 on: August 31, 2017, 11:08:01 AM »
Particularly at this club, where in recent years changing managers has often coincided with things getting worse.

Which one(s) do you feel we should have stuck with longer?

Houlier, Garde and maybe even RDM for me

I was at RDM's last game in charge, away at Preston.  It was just about the worst combination of performance, team selection and tactics I can remember seeing.  A truly shocking display.

yeah my lad was at that one said it was dreadful
i dont think he would have become the manager we wanted but i did feel he should have been given maybe another 10 matches,
in hindsight it wouldn't have mattered because the new man we bought in before the season was gone to get us up in super quick time was an abject failure so giving RDM a few more games wouldn't have hurt in the long run


Offline olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #5399 on: August 31, 2017, 12:21:29 PM »
I think Aftab it is because they are the same in the boardroom as they are on the pitch.  They are basically negative.  They plan for what they don't want to happen not for what can be achieved.  It is like when Lewis Hamilton was told in the last race of the season finish no lower than third and the title is yours.  He scraped third place by a whisker due to a mistake by another driver.  He should have been told to go out and win the race.  If you do not cultivate a winning mentality you get a losing mentality.  There is no middle safe pair of hands route.
Agreed Brian the winning mentality is so important. However I thought Dr Xia was the right fearless entrepreneurial type we needed, prepared to take chances, but it appears that he has appointed wrong people in Wyness and Round who convinced him that Bruce was a good choice last October.