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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 319017 times)

Offline Monty

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4395 on: August 17, 2017, 12:49:58 PM »
'Number of crosses' alone doesn't tell you anything. A cross can be anything from Dani Alves running onto an Iniesta throughball in the inside right and passing back to Messi, or it can mean Alan Hutton, near the halfway line, lumping it into the box because he doesn't have any other idea what to do and nobody else is helping either. I'm not comforted by the crossing statistic.

Offline andyh

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4396 on: August 17, 2017, 12:51:24 PM »
I know it's only a bunch of blokes on an Internet forum, but that poll is staggering really.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4397 on: August 17, 2017, 12:56:19 PM »
I prefer to believe what I see with my own eyes.  Statistics can prove that bees can't fly.

It is not long ball it is hoof ball.  A long pass is an excellent thing a hoof somewhere upfield is desperation.  What you have to factor in is when in the game we resort to launching the ball upfield.  It usually starts at about the hour mark when our players tire.  That is when the hoofing starts.

A better measure of whether we play long aimless upfield passes would be when we play them and what the score is when we do.

Offline Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4398 on: August 17, 2017, 01:02:11 PM »
I prefer to believe what I see with my own eyes.  Statistics can prove that bees can't fly.

It is not long ball it is hoof ball.  A long pass is an excellent thing a hoof somewhere upfield is desperation.  What you have to factor in is when in the game we resort to launching the ball upfield.  It usually starts at about the hour mark when our players tire.  That is when the hoofing starts.

A better measure of whether we play long aimless upfield passes would be when we play them and what the score is when we do.



I agree that a good long ball is good thing. SGT's Watford scored loads of goals hitting long balls up to Jenkins or Reilly up front or Barnes and Callaghan out wide. Also to Ian Ormondroyd out wide on the left for Villa against some poor full back a foot shorter than him who had no chance of beating him in the air.

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4399 on: August 17, 2017, 01:04:13 PM »
I prefer to believe what I see with my own eyes.  Statistics can prove that bees can't fly.

It is not long ball it is hoof ball.  A long pass is an excellent thing a hoof somewhere upfield is desperation.  What you have to factor in is when in the game we resort to launching the ball upfield.  It usually starts at about the hour mark when our players tire.  That is when the hoofing starts.

A better measure of whether we play long aimless upfield passes would be when we play them and what the score is when we do.

I think mosrt of those stats backup why we have such a problem.  We piddle about with the ball in our own half with no attempt to do anything until we can whack it, long or short, down one of the wings for someone to hit the box but with only 1 player in the box against a keeper and 3-4 defenders and plenty of overhit and underhit crosses it is completely ineffective.  Once teams realise that is literally the only thing we offer and we're shit at it they push on to us and force us to start hoofing, which we're totally unsuited to so the ball just keeps coming back for as long as they can keep pressing us.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4400 on: August 17, 2017, 01:08:55 PM »
As it said it will not change any minds, football fans tend to be a stubborn breed and always believe they know best and I include myself in that. So, we will see a set of stats and manipulate them in our minds to suit our preconceptions rather than face up to our prejudice. Our problem in respect of passing from my perspective are failures when it comes to anything likely to cause the opposition discomfort. To me that points to an issue with the movement of our strikers and the speed of delivery from midfield.

Offline Monty

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4401 on: August 17, 2017, 01:12:06 PM »
As it said it will not change any minds, football fans tend to be a stubborn breed and always believe they know best and I include myself in that. So, we will see a set of stats and manipulate them in our minds to suit our preconceptions rather than face up to our prejudice. Our problem in respect of passing from my perspective are failures when it comes to anything likely to cause the opposition discomfort. To me that points to an issue with the movement of our strikers and the speed of delivery from midfield.

And the movement of the players in midfield off the ball, which is a coaching and tactical responsibility.

Offline ChicagoLion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4402 on: August 17, 2017, 01:14:59 PM »
A more effective stat is how many passes be they crosses or long result in possession.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4403 on: August 17, 2017, 01:16:57 PM »
There was a spell about 10 minutes before half time on Tuesday where we stopped being second to every ball in midfield and we started to play a bit higher up the pitch and we looked better for it. We showed in the first half against Hull that we can do that which is why it's frustrating but overall so far, we've been pretty piss poor and that's being kind.

Offline kippaxvilla2

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4404 on: August 17, 2017, 01:31:56 PM »
These people in the media and I include ex players who come out with these cheap, lazy lines like 'it's too early in the season everyone needs to calm down' annoy me the most.  I was an advocate of him coming in and remained supportive until the end of the season but then I witness pre season and obviously the start and the fact that he has now had 40 matches to deliver no discernible playing style with the best budget in the league with no obvious signs of improvement.  Only Alan Brazil (yes him) seemed to suggest that his record having only won 16 of the games he has been in charge was worth questioning.

Offline Damo70

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4405 on: August 17, 2017, 01:39:18 PM »
Good player, decent bloke, media friendly and played for/captained/won things with the nation's media's most loved club. He is the Princess Diana of football. Which makes The Villa the Camilla of the football media.

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4406 on: August 17, 2017, 01:40:46 PM »
A more effective stat is how many passes be they crosses or long result in possession.

How many short passes are in the final third? how many passes are backwards out of the final third? how many defenders per villa player in the box when we cross? how many crosses are from deep?

There's loads of stats which are much more useful than the ones given in that article.  This is one of the biggest problems with any analysis offered in the press, it's painfully superficial.

Specific to what Chris has said, If anyone changes their opinion based on the stats in that article then they're incredibly naive.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4407 on: August 17, 2017, 02:06:25 PM »
A more effective stat is how many passes be they crosses or long result in possession.

How many short passes are in the final third? how many passes are backwards out of the final third? how many defenders per villa player in the box when we cross? how many crosses are from deep?

There's loads of stats which are much more useful than the ones given in that article.  This is one of the biggest problems with any analysis offered in the press, it's painfully superficial.

Specific to what Chris has said, If anyone changes their opinion based on the stats in that article then they're incredibly naive.

Of course there are more in depth stats that will tell you more but specifically in response to those who suggest we play some sort of Crazy Gang style hoofball by design then I think it tells us that it is incorrect. As I said, we tend to like stats if they back up our own preconceptions, that's as true in real life as it is in football. If we see something that chimes then we use it, if it doesn't then we look for reasons why it is wrong. I am not trying to defend Bruce, I accept that managers lives and die by results and he's on a life support machine that could be switched off at any time, just making a case for why I think that the scattergun approach of cricising every aspect of our performances undermines the argument. If people see it differently that's fine.

Offline Nelson Lodge

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4408 on: August 17, 2017, 02:10:24 PM »
He has had 10 months (which for some reason he thinks is 6 months) and there is no discernible sign of improvement. It is not just the 3 league games of this new season that count but all of them since he took charge. Giving him a little more time is unlikely to change anything for the better. He brought in 7 players in January and another 6 this window. So the team is now his. No excuse.

A lot is made of his previous 4 promotions. Well as we all have heard many times "Past Performance is No Indicator (or guarantee) of Future Results" How true is that!

Wagner at Huddersfield and Jokanovic at Fulham were able to turn things around quickly, and those clubs' teams were in a very poor shape. Even the Wolves this season with an unknown manager and players have got off to a flyer and they have been a basket case of a club for years.

Then compare Bruce with the 3 managers who have got Villa promoted from this level in my life time:-

Joe Mercer. Became manager in December 1958 but could not stop relegation from division 1. Next season he got Villa promoted at the first time of asking as Champions., and that is with having the "Old Board" to deal with who were the epitome of incompetence.

Ron Saunders. Appointed June 1974. In his first season promotion as runners up to Docherty's ManU; plus a League Cup win thrown in as a bonus.

Graham Taylor. Appointed May 1987. In his first season promoted as runners up, although limped over the line at the end.

Bruce is not in the same class. The words "boots", "laces" and "not for" spring to mind.

Why hasn't he gone? I suspect it means Wyness & Round putting their hands up and grovelling to Xia that they have got it wrong. Does China have the equivalent of Russian gulags? :)
On Dr X's Twitter feed (which I google to view) and in a thread on here it is mentioned that he has been reading Peter Drucker"s book on how Executives should operate a business. Had a quick look at that book online. He appears to operate by appointing people and then leave them to bring success without him interfering frequently. So perhaps our owner is thinking that just changing the team manager is not all that is required. From the sidelines I watch with interest.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:12:10 PM by Nelson Lodge »

Offline mr underhill

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4409 on: August 17, 2017, 03:05:19 PM »
he will be gone i believe if we do not win any of our next three games, certainty our next two League games.