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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 318663 times)

Offline ozzjim

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4035 on: August 15, 2017, 12:49:06 PM »
That's the problem, for years we've spent money but not really had a plan. Using Wagner as an example from the other thread, despite a small budget he brought in players that were to do specific jobs and could do what he wanted them to do. We spend way more money but seem to sign a player and then think, now what do we do with him.

Very true. What system does her want to play, because if it's 442 then we have bought no wingers or central midfielders that can function in that, and small strikers to aim crosses at. If 5 3 2 why sell baker and not get left side cover in??

Offline ChicagoLion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4036 on: August 15, 2017, 12:50:00 PM »
You know I sit and read through all the comments, suggestion and counter suggestions and it feels like Groundhog Day all over again at Villa Park. Weve tried every single flavour of manager over the past few years and yet still we end up in the same damn situation, namely a big club on its ar*e unable to pick itself up and start again. For every single candidate offered up along with the reasons behind the thinking, I see said candidate (were he to be successful) sitting uncomfortably a couple of years later at a press conference having aged a decade and explaining why the club is mid-table.

Im no fan of Bruce, but quite frankly I really dont see how anyone else could turn it around right now, as the last few years have proven that no matter what name is above the dugout it changes little on the field.

What I do see is the club I love on its way to becoming a Leeds or a Forest, a footnote in Premier league history and a Championship mainstay who were good 20 years ago. The only thing right now that we can truly be proud of are our fans, whos unending support home and away is a real testament to the club; however, if we roll forward 5 years and we are still stuck in this league, are we honestly convinced that we will still be able to count on this?

What worries me the most in this ramble of mine is that if the club that represents the second city is unable to arrest its terminal decline, that we will start to lose a generation of future fans to the lure of successful Premier League clubs.

I can't help but feel we are finished as a remotely competitive outfit.  The spending last year although needed was reckless with little thought given to even the short term plan.
This is my fear, it's not Bruces fault, he is just the last in a long line of incompetents.
Some think the squad is good enough with tweaking, I am not so sure and our Financial position does not enable us to drastically change it.
We are in a real mess.

Offline mallo

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4037 on: August 15, 2017, 01:02:23 PM »
You know I sit and read through all the comments, suggestion and counter suggestions and it feels like Groundhog Day all over again at Villa Park. Weve tried every single flavour of manager over the past few years and yet still we end up in the same damn situation, namely a big club on its ar*e unable to pick itself up and start again. For every single candidate offered up along with the reasons behind the thinking, I see said candidate (were he to be successful) sitting uncomfortably a couple of years later at a press conference having aged a decade and explaining why the club is mid-table.

Im no fan of Bruce, but quite frankly I really dont see how anyone else could turn it around right now, as the last few years have proven that no matter what name is above the dugout it changes little on the field.

What I do see is the club I love on its way to becoming a Leeds or a Forest, a footnote in Premier league history and a Championship mainstay who were good 20 years ago. The only thing right now that we can truly be proud of are our fans, whos unending support home and away is a real testament to the club; however, if we roll forward 5 years and we are still stuck in this league, are we honestly convinced that we will still be able to count on this?

What worries me the most in this ramble of mine is that if the club that represents the second city is unable to arrest its terminal decline, that we will start to lose a generation of future fans to the lure of successful Premier League clubs.

I can't help but feel we are finished as a remotely competitive outfit.  The spending last year although needed was reckless with little thought given to even the short term plan.
This is my fear, it's not Bruces fault, he is just the last in a long line of incompetents.
Some think the squad is good enough with tweaking, I am not so sure and our Financial position does not enable us to drastically change it.
We are in a real mess.

My fear is we don't have the people who can CHANGE something from a crock to something serviceable. I think we have perfectly good people at the top who can manage something that is going along ok and needs a bit of guidance now and again, but we are not that. We are (or at least have been) a basket case of tactics and buying policy for years and years and years. I hope we go on a run and the positivity gets us to the playoffs but at the moment I just can't see it. Our next owner if it's not Xia will not have anything like the pockets he has.

Offline garyshawsknee

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4038 on: August 15, 2017, 01:11:50 PM »
But he is at fault for not improving performances in nearly 40 games, he's brought more than half a dozen players which makes the squad seem unbalanced, happily involves players who have taken the piss for years, plays very defence and dour football.

I agree not everything is his fault and he came into a tricky situation, but he doesn't seem to have the capability to improve it. Whilst we see other teams with inferior squads win matches playing a far better style of football.

Offline Dante Lavelli

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4039 on: August 15, 2017, 01:12:41 PM »
That's the problem, for years we've spent money but not really had a plan. Using Wagner as an example from the other thread, despite a small budget he brought in players that were to do specific jobs and could do what he wanted them to do. We spend way more money but seem to sign a player and then think, now what do we do with him.

People rightly hate the expression, but that is how 'moneyball' can realistically be applied to football.  If you have a strategy then it is easier to define the attributes any new signing must have, and crucially the bits where they can be lacking.  Consequently you do not have players like Grealish being asked to be a box-to-box midfielder, or Hutton asked to do the job of a winger.   

Offline PeterWithesShin

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4040 on: August 15, 2017, 01:14:15 PM »
That's sabermetrics.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4041 on: August 15, 2017, 01:26:46 PM »
I think a part of the issue is our expectations. I think we still see ourselves as this massive club and in a way we still are. But on the pitch we are just not and for us fans do we acknowledge that? As a board do we ever admit that? I do wonder how we would react if we got someone like Wagner in, not Wagner himself but plucked a guy out of another league with a growing reputation and only gave him limited resources to do the job? If he brings in players who many of us won't have heard of how would we react? The expectations of fans at the likes of Bournemouth or Huddersfield afford managers like Howe or Wagner time to build and ultimately make mistakes. I get the impression sometimes that the rush or urgency to get it right quickly at Villa swallows managers. And the longer it goes without success, and we've been sinking for a while now, the greater the pressure.

Offline PeterWithesShin

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4042 on: August 15, 2017, 01:32:21 PM »
I think it depends if you can see what the manager is trying to do taking shape even if the results aren't great. Look at how many were still behind Bruce towards the end of last season despite the total lack of that. If he, or Wagner, were instilling a system and we could see it then I think even more would have been patient. For me it's the total lack of any sign of anything close to that at any stage for nearly 40 games that has me wanting Bruce gone.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4043 on: August 15, 2017, 01:36:15 PM »
There's no plan with Bruce. So not defending him at all. It's been stunning that he's chopped and changed so much. I just wonder though is there enough patience amongst all fans to see a plan through? Huddersfield would have been more likely to sign a Joe Bennett than a Jordan Amavi, players for 500k than 5m. How would we react and does that reaction change how the manager ends up behaving?

Offline Ger Regan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4044 on: August 15, 2017, 01:38:58 PM »
I think it depends if you can see what the manager is trying to do taking shape even if the results aren't great. Look at how many were still behind Bruce towards the end of last season despite the total lack of that. If he, or Wagner, were instilling a system and we could see it then I think even more would have been patient. For me it's the total lack of any sign of anything close to that at any stage for nearly 40 games that has me wanting Bruce gone.
My thoughts exactly. It's all well and good talking about bruce's record in getting team's promoted, but it's the same line of thinking that resulted in us buying a host of the top performing players from the league on the assumption that they would perform regardless of any tactical plans put in place (and barring Kodjia none have them have).
Bruce has done precious little since joining us to convince me that he's capable to getting the team to perform at close to the level that they should be, in fact he's looked clueless, and his past history has no real relevance beyond that.

Offline Hookeysmith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4045 on: August 15, 2017, 01:43:16 PM »
He openly stated that he had never managed a club this size and with the budget he had at his disposal and I think he loved the fact he could ask about a certain player (Like Hogan et al) and know that he could have him if he wanted and it made him very lazy. As others have said - buy the best he can and they can play on their own

All the Managers with a set or tight budget have to be careful and do a lot of research on players to ensure they will fit into the plan they have

Bruce had big budget and no plan - why are we surprised its gone to shit?

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4046 on: August 15, 2017, 01:46:05 PM »
He openly stated that he had never managed a club this size and with the budget he had at his disposal and I think he loved the fact he could ask about a certain player (Like Hogan et al) and know that he could have him if he wanted and it made him very lazy. As others have said - buy the best he can and they can play on their own

All the Managers with a set or tight budget have to be careful and do a lot of research on players to ensure they will fit into the plan they have

Bruce had big budget and no plan - why are we surprised its gone to shit?

And that in my opinion is also what happened to TSM2. And it's ruined him since. Even when the wallet was limited instead of bringing in carefully thought out players he just became a whiny lazy fuck

Online aj2k77

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4047 on: August 15, 2017, 01:49:57 PM »
There's no plan with Bruce. So not defending him at all. It's been stunning that he's chopped and changed so much. I just wonder though is there enough patience amongst all fans to see a plan through? Huddersfield would have been more likely to sign a Joe Bennett than a Jordan Amavi, players for 500k than 5m. How would we react and does that reaction change how the manager ends up behaving?

Huddersfield wouldn't sign either of them because neither could defend.

Offline lovejoy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4048 on: August 15, 2017, 01:50:52 PM »
The problem with changing managers every season is that the squad are built for that manager's style. Change the manager and you need to "re-build the squad". That's why the European model is to have a Director of Football to set the style of the club then you appoint managers/coaches to achieve this. When they get sacked you don't have to "rebuild the squad" as the players already match the playing style.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #4049 on: August 15, 2017, 01:59:36 PM »
There's no plan with Bruce. So not defending him at all. It's been stunning that he's chopped and changed so much. I just wonder though is there enough patience amongst all fans to see a plan through? Huddersfield would have been more likely to sign a Joe Bennett than a Jordan Amavi, players for 500k than 5m. How would we react and does that reaction change how the manager ends up behaving?

Huddersfield wouldn't sign either of them because neither could defend.

That's not the point I'm making