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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 320263 times)

Online Dave

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2190 on: May 02, 2017, 08:19:25 PM »
I don't think there will be a vacancy but if hypothetically we replace him how long do you give his successor before he too is faces trial by forum? Given that he starts on a level with everyone else, not in the bottom 6 like Bruce did, should we say not in the top 6 by December and we do it all again?

Exactly.  We've done the young inexperienced manager thing far too many times in the past five years with Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, and RDM so why is there such a clamour for us to try it again?

No one, and I mean no one, is going to fix the mess that our club got to in six months.  Yes the football has been crap but give the guy a chance.  He's got proven pedigree.

For all the bleating about not wanting to end up like Leeds, isn't sacking their manager every six months sort of their trademark?

How do you get Lambert and Di Matteo as being "young and inexperienced"? The former had over 300 matches as a manager before joining us, the latter over 200.

And Leeds might have been better off sticking with Neil Redfearn or David Hockaday, rather than changing until they got somebody good. I think it's unlikely though.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2191 on: May 02, 2017, 08:27:47 PM »
And Steve Race wrote Hoots Mon There's A Moose Loose Aboot The Hoose.  Talented family.

Offline four fornicholl

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2192 on: May 02, 2017, 08:40:33 PM »
Penny Race.
br />

multi hosting
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 08:42:19 PM by four fornicholl »

Offline Sexual Ealing

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2193 on: May 02, 2017, 09:01:39 PM »
Every single one of the teams in the play offs has a young foreign boss who plays reasonable football. Every last one of them.

And the team at the top have Chris Hughton. Who failed to get promoted last season behind Steve Bruce.

I'm less comfortable with looking for a 'type' of manager than judging each contender on merit. That path I think would lead to disaster.

I think you're both right there. The right man is unlikely to be a member of the old boys network, but there's no point prioritising 'young' and 'overseas' ahead of 'good'.

Offline Ad@m

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2194 on: May 02, 2017, 10:21:22 PM »
I don't think there will be a vacancy but if hypothetically we replace him how long do you give his successor before he too is faces trial by forum? Given that he starts on a level with everyone else, not in the bottom 6 like Bruce did, should we say not in the top 6 by December and we do it all again?

Exactly.  We've done the young inexperienced manager thing far too many times in the past five years with Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, and RDM so why is there such a clamour for us to try it again?

No one, and I mean no one, is going to fix the mess that our club got to in six months.  Yes the football has been crap but give the guy a chance.  He's got proven pedigree.

For all the bleating about not wanting to end up like Leeds, isn't sacking their manager every six months sort of their trademark?

How do you get Lambert and Di Matteo as being "young and inexperienced"? The former had over 300 matches as a manager before joining us, the latter over 200.

And Leeds might have been better off sticking with Neil Redfearn or David Hockaday, rather than changing until they got somebody good. I think it's unlikely though.

Lambert had managed Wycombe, Colchester and Norwich - he was hardly the finished article.  And Di Matteo had managed a full season with a club twice. Again, hardly a seasoned veteran.

And what's with all the praise being heaped on Leeds? Remind me who they've got in the play offs given we should be in the play offs as a minimum.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2195 on: May 02, 2017, 11:49:51 PM »
The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

He won promotion from the Championship last season. Has the game really moved on that much in the last 12 months?

You missed the point, that he will not change his style, a style that is year by year becoming out dated.  As I said, his success is his weakness in that he has not developed as a manager.  12 months ago Hull scraped promotion through the play-offs and won in the final, when arguably they were not the better team. Each time he has been promoted, he has been left with a team that was ill-equipped for the PL.

And yet, having taken Hull up last year, they stand a reasonable chance of staying up despite being odds on to be relegated at the start of the year.

Criticise his style all you like, I have plenty of times this season, but there's simply no evidence whatsoever to suggest he's lost the ability to get teams promoted from this division.

Other than failing miserably to get a team promoted this season?

I'm prepared to cut him some slack given he took over a side one place above the relegation zone with a third of the season already gone.  Jose Mourinho wouldn't have got us promoted from that position.

Bloody hek you make it sound like he was tasked with an impossible job, we were 9 points off the play offs with 34 games to play. Lets not try and colour it over, he was brought in with the sole aim of promotion and he has failed fantastically.

Did the club ever state that?

I always thought it was more pulling us well away from any relegation danger and stabilising us and getting some professionalism running through the club again.

I can't remember exactly what I said at the time but my feeling was this year was a free hit and next season is the proper time to judge.

It hasn't been glorious since xmas but we did still get go on 7 wins in 9 or whatever it was. If we start next season with that form there won't be many complaints trust me as we'll actually be top or 2nd of a league for once.

I've decided I don't want him out as I actually want to see what he does when all teams start on 0 points in August. I refuse to believe he'll blow it as spectacularly as RDM did and get us 15 points off the top 2 within two months.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2196 on: May 02, 2017, 11:55:20 PM »
Jokanovic for me - I was at the Newcastle Fulham game and they played them off the park. Made Newcastle look like us.

Bizzarely Fulham seemed to be derided on this forum as some awful team because they played so negatively at VP for some reason. The reality is they've been the best football team in the championship for months and have the momentum to win the play offs. Arguably the best midfielder in the division in Tom Cairney and that Sessegnon kid looks decent.

I would say if you want style and substance Jokanovic is probably the best around at championship level. I doubt Fulham will let him go if they go up though like Watford did.

Offline AV82EC

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2197 on: May 03, 2017, 07:28:43 AM »
Jokanovic is a top coach and whilst Fulham flattered to deceive at that point they caused us all sorts of problems.

Offline LeeS

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2198 on: May 03, 2017, 10:03:34 AM »
I think Bruce's season is very hard to judge. He picked us up at a pretty low point. We'd failed to adapt to the Championship and were looking more like relegation candidates than top 6. He then stopped the rot, steadied the ship, got us winning again and had an obvious impact. Xmas through to January was very poor and I don't necessarily buy excuses about Kodja being at the ACN. It was like the bad old days under Lambert again. But then he got us on a run and we looked like we might salvage something from the season. When that became mathematically impossible the players, fairly understandably, went off on an early holiday. So we've ended on a damp squib.

In summary, he's not set the world alight and we play some shocking football at times, but he has certainly done enough to get a full tilt at the season next year.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2199 on: May 03, 2017, 10:09:15 AM »
I think Bruce's season is very hard to judge. He picked us up at a pretty low point. We'd failed to adapt to the Championship and were looking more like relegation candidates than top 6. He then stopped the rot, steadied the ship, got us winning again and had an obvious impact. Xmas through to January was very poor and I don't necessarily buy excuses about Kodja being at the ACN. It was like the bad old days under Lambert again. But then he got us on a run and we looked like we might salvage something from the season. When that became mathematically impossible the players, fairly understandably, went off on an early holiday. So we've ended on a damp squib.

In summary, he's not set the world alight and we play some shocking football at times, but he has certainly done enough to get a full tilt at the season next year.

Another decent and fair summary of it for me. He's not been great but not quite as bad as people have suggested I don't think.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2200 on: May 03, 2017, 10:20:18 AM »
There was a story on th email website last night which sums the problem up for me, it's a bit long but it's a selection of quotes from games through the season is it has to be:

Quote
If football managers were awarded points for honesty, Steve Bruce would be parading a Championship trophy around Villa Park this weekend.

They're not. They are awarded points for results and Aston Villa's candid boss has had cause to blast his players after too many bad ones.

Fair play to Bruce for telling it how it is rather than patronising fans by putting a brave face on setbacks like some of his predecessors.

But the regularity of his post match blasts show the task he has ahead of him to transform Villa into genuine promotion contenders next season.

'Pretty pathetic stuff'

Norwich 1 Villa 0, Carrow Road, December 13


What prompted it: It was mid-December and Villa failed to get going during a 1-0 defeat to Norwich City at Carrow Road.

Their unbeaten run under Bruce had ended at Leeds United a few weeks earlier, but the manner of the loss in Norfolk had the manager raging.

The quotes: "We certainly didnít take part in the game. On days like today you apologise to people who have travelled. It was pretty pathetic stuff.

"We cannot be any worse than that. In the 10 games Iíve been here, we havenít put in a worse performance than that."

'Man up'

Cardiff 1 Villa 0, Cardiff City Stadium, January 2


What prompted it: It was another flat 1-0 away defeat, this time in South Wales.

In the first match of 2017, Villa appeared to be suffering a New Year hangover, Craig Gardner and Ashley Westwood were hauled off at half-time and Villa were a bit better after the break.

The quotes: " We've thrown that hand grenade in and I won't accept it.

"So they can either man up to it and say we've got to to do it his way or alternatively I'll find a team eventually that will play my game.

"Most people will tell you the way I've managed over the last 20 years.

"I want a team that epitomises what I stand for. I cant stand looking at the first half because we didn't do enough.

"The sheer lack of quality to do the basics right was simply not good enough. You apologise because, listen, itís up to.

'Just unacceptable'

Wolves 1 Villa 0, Molineux. January 14


What prompted it: Another off day.

Considering it was a derby game against former boss Paul Lambert, Villa lacked intensity and rarely looked like cancelling out Wolves' early lead.

The quotes: "I thought there were shoots of recovery and then all of a sudden you go away from home and they throw the hand grenade in.

"Some of the stuff we did was just unacceptable. As Iíve said over the years Iím never ever going to criticise any individual.

"But as a group and as a team, what weíve produced is not good enough to get a result in this division, let alone win a local derby."

'Sometimes you feel embarrassed'

Brentford 3 Villa 0, Griffin Park, January 31


What prompted it: It was transfer deadline day and Villa were on a high after a productive transfer window.

Three of the new players Conor Hourihane, Henri Lansbury and Birkir Bjarnason made their debuts.

But Villa were soundly beaten 3-0 by Dean Smith's Brentford, who had sold them Scott Hogan that very day.

The quotes: "That's three or four or five now away from home that I've come out and had to apologise.

"That's arguably the worst in my short tenure here and sometimes in your career you feel embarrassed.

"That ranks alongside trhem. We were totally abject. We were so easy to play against. I can only apologise.

"The new faces I'm convinced will make a difference, but they will be scratching their heads going back thinking 'dear oh dear what a debut that's been'."

'I've been accused of not caring'

Villa 1 Barnsley 3, Villa Park, February 14


What prompted it: It was Valentine's Day but there was not much love coming from the Villa Park faithful as Villa lost 3-1.

Most of his previous blasts had come away from home, but this one was at B6.

The quotes: "Of course there is going to be a few chants and rightly so.

"Thatís what playing for this club is all about. There have been accusations of myself that Iím not bothered, that couldnít be further from the truth.

"Iím determined that Iíll turn it around, given time, but we have to question the team both individually and collectively.Ē

"Iíve been accused of not caring, my body language is supposed to be c***.

"Itís the best club and biggest club Iíve had for 20 years but itís arguably the toughest to turn around.

"Given time I know for a fact Iíll get it right."

'We ****** around with it'

Blackburn 1, Villa 0, Ewood Park, April 29


What prompted it: Some Villa fans were chanting in support of Blackburn to pile relegation pressure on rivals Blues.

But none of the claret and blue brigade can have been happy with how lacklustre Villa were. It was another shocker.

The quotes: "Iím not going to hide it. I didnít enjoy it one little bit.

"I didnít see us take part in the game. I didnít see us create a chance, beat a man, win a challenge.

"I didnít see us do anything.

"We ****** around with it and got what we got which was a defeat.Ē

"Iím disappointed, angry, upset. It doesnít really matter does it.

"What does matter is that theyíre supposed to be my team and theyíre supposed to mirror the manager a little bit.

"Certainly what I witnessed today isnít good enough."

In conclusion


That collection of comments from Bruce proves that the manager sees what we see - that his Villa side, particularly away from home, are under achieving.

Throughout his six months at Villa he has accepted responsibility for performances and results.

But he is too experienced a manager to think he can keep blasting his team following below par performance after below par performance.

When it comes to him facing the tape recorders, cameras and notebooks of the press room next season, he needs to have addressed the root causes of his squad's problems and, hopefully, be purring about positive performances and results.


Now to me that's written by someone who has firmly decided that Bruce is the man (it's Mat Kendrick by the way) so he's being given largely a free pass for the season with the only negative being at the very end where he says, effectively, just don't do it again.


My reading of it is that he's had a massive window in terms of ins and outs and yet nothing has changed, the problems mentioned in that Norwich game are all the same problems we have now.  I said in December that we felt like a team with a manager who was just waiting for the transfer window, he knew he had his excuse firmly in his pocket.  The same has happened again.  He got a bit of a run but as soon as it became obvious we couldn't get near the playoffs he switched off again, once more feeling safe that he had his excuse nicely ready for why we weren't challenging.


Unfortunately I don't think he's going anywhere because I don't think Wyness is willing to admit he got it wrong just yet.  His excuses won't wash next season though and I just don't think he'll win enough games to stop there being huge amounts of pressure on him towards Christmas.  I just hope we don't hang on to him too long out of some twisted sense of stability.

Offline cheltenhamlion

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2201 on: May 03, 2017, 10:53:14 AM »
Every single one of the teams in the play offs has a young foreign boss who plays reasonable football. Every last one of them.

And the team at the top have Chris Hughton. Who failed to get promoted last season behind Steve Bruce.

I'm less comfortable with looking for a 'type' of manager than judging each contender on merit. That path I think would lead to disaster.

I think you're both right there. The right man is unlikely to be a member of the old boys network, but there's no point prioritising 'young' and 'overseas' ahead of 'good'.

I don't give a shit who the manager is as long as we play attacking football. Where your only front foot tactic is to biff it up to the strikers and hope they nick a goal.

I mentioned who manages the teams in the play offs simply to show you don't need an English, old school, hoof ball merchant in charge to do well in this division.

And it makes it twice as hard to sort out should you get promoted playing that way.

Online Toronto Villa

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2202 on: May 03, 2017, 04:46:27 PM »
That's been a very frustrating aspect of Bruce's tenure. The football is prehistoric at times and we have players who simply aren't suited to that yet he persists with it. I don't understand what he sees when we what a long punt up to Hogan. There is little urgency in the football and we are ponderous if I am being polite. We get caught on the break too often and as well as the defence has done when you have the ball only 35-40% of the time the dam is going to break eventually. It's one thing if this was happening vs Man City or Chelsea quite another when it's against Fulham, Reading or Blackburn fucking Rovers.

Offline KRS

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2203 on: May 03, 2017, 04:48:21 PM »
No point in quoting the full article and post above from paul-e, but at least Kendrick is also seeing exactly what we see and raises the same concerns and issues that Bruce has been incapable of addressing despite himself identifying and talking about them post-match. The same must be clear to see for Xia, Wyness and Round, so the only question they need to answer is whether or not they think Bruce is the right man and is capable of sorting it out.

Offline Diablo

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2204 on: May 03, 2017, 05:16:32 PM »
No point in quoting the full article and post above from paul-e, but at least Kendrick is also seeing exactly what we see and raises the same concerns and issues that Bruce has been incapable of addressing despite himself identifying and talking about them post-match. The same must be clear to see for Xia, Wyness and Round, so the only question they need to answer is whether or not they think Bruce is the right man and is capable of sorting it out.

I was thinking the same thing today. If I was in Xia's shoes what would I do? He's got a lot riding on it which could swing his decision either way but I wouldn't be surprised if he gets someone else in. By all accounts SB hasn't got a fixed length contract so I assume it will all come down to that scheduled sit down end of season meeting.