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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 316122 times)

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2100 on: May 01, 2017, 02:40:13 PM »
The last two times we have been promoted we have gone for visionary managers who have changed the entire ethos of the club and transformed us from second tier also-rans to contenders for major honours. Sadly, Bruce doesn't seem that type.

Eddie Howe seems the best candidate. Go get him before a bigger-than-Bournemouth club in the Premier League decides to make an approach.

I don't think Bruce would be going anywhere, but if he were to go, I wonder whether Dean Smith would be a serious contender for the job.  On the face of it, he's probably got a similar record to the likes of Dyche had at that point in thrir careers, so would he be worth a shot?

I've followed Walsall over the last 5-6 years so seen a lot of Dean Smith coming through and building up his managerial career.

He does play good football, got Walsall playing a very attractive game (for a club with limited resources) and he seems to be doing the same at Brentford. They were one of the best footballing teams I've seen at VP this season, hammered us down there and are playing well currently.

Worry I have is he's not really adaptable. One of the seasons at Walsall they went on a 12 match winless run playing in exactly the same way and think Brentford have a run of 3 wins in 14 earlier this season. It's alright saying it's par for the course at these clubs but it's just the same as the dismal run we have in January and February and that's a big part of why a lot want SB out.

As hard as it is we need to find a manager who doesn't panic as soon as we lose a game and then wins the next one and the one after that. Newcastle is my ideal template. I don't really think they've played that great football this year and they've nearly lost as many games. However when they've lost a game they've followed up by winning their next 3 or 4 games. That gets you promotion.

We need a manager who can sort out the mentality of this club as it's still holding us back. Most obvious indication is the results we get when we score or concede first in a game. I honestly thought SB was capable of turning around the mentality so it worries me someone as experienced as him is looking as non-plussed as the managers we've had in the last 6 years in how to change things.

Some fair points.  The alarm bells started properly ringing in the Norwich game at VP for me.  We started off 4-4-2 and got into the lead after about 20 odd minutes.  Bruce immediately switched to a 4-5-1, which of course allowed Norwich to get themselves together and get on the ball.  We ended up winning the game, but it really revealed Bruce's negative approach. 

Online LukeJames

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2101 on: May 01, 2017, 02:41:28 PM »
If we sack Bruce we will turn into Leeds, who change manager every season they don't get promoted, the fact they haven't been promoted is proof that model doesn't work.

You mean not like Watford, then? All that's "proof" of is that it's important to get the decision right. Once will do.[\b]

Quote
Look at the top 2 Newcastle very little change from last season have a manager that had he been appointed earlier would have kept them up. Brighton who have been settled for a long time their promotion has been years in the making.

..... who before settling on Hughton, had four managers over 2013 and 2014.[\b]

Oh yes the law of averages appoint 10 managers and hope that 1 works. I'm glad you aren't running the club. So it's worked for 1 club so let's ignore the multiple clubs it hasn't worked for then. That is the best logic I have ever seen.

I forgot about their promotions in 2013 and 2014.

That's not what I said. My point was that it's important to get the decision right, eventually, once. As all of your examples have proven. By the same measure, if something's not right with the decision that's been taken, change it, learn from it, make a better one. Again, I cite your examples of the right and wrong ways to do it.

But I don't think we should simply use the yardstick of some arbitrary limit of how many shit managers we've already got rid off to vindicate sticking with Bruce. He's an outmoded manager, and, in my opinion, he's not the man to take us up. He might wake up one June morning shouting "eureka!" having had an epiphany about how successful football is played in the here and now, but I won't be betting on it.

A Bruce team would have gotten a draw from the Sheffield Wednesday away, most likely ground out 1:0 vs Huddersfield, obviously beat Rotherham, what happened at home vs Forrest wouldn't have happened I'm 100% confident with that, Brentford once again ground out a 1:0, same with Bristol City.

Wow, I'm genuinly speechless.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2102 on: May 01, 2017, 03:11:08 PM »


Nobody talks Villa down as much as Villa fans.
Absolutely this, Lerner did a bang on job of lowering our expectations, the acceptance of mediocrity is rife.

I'm not talking us down, I see Liverpool, Leeds l, Newcastle etc getting stick on here because their supporters (or some of them) are living on past glories. Four decades ago we were league champions, over 20 years since we last won a trophy. We stank the Premier League out until we were relegated and are about to finish 20 plus points behind Brighton, Reading and Huddersfield Town.

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2103 on: May 01, 2017, 03:17:11 PM »
If we sack Bruce we will turn into Leeds, who change manager every season they don't get promoted, the fact they haven't been promoted is proof that model doesn't work.

You mean not like Watford, then? All that's "proof" of is that it's important to get the decision right. Once will do.[\b]

Quote
Look at the top 2 Newcastle very little change from last season have a manager that had he been appointed earlier would have kept them up. Brighton who have been settled for a long time their promotion has been years in the making.

..... who before settling on Hughton, had four managers over 2013 and 2014.[\b]

Oh yes the law of averages appoint 10 managers and hope that 1 works. I'm glad you aren't running the club. So it's worked for 1 club so let's ignore the multiple clubs it hasn't worked for then. That is the best logic I have ever seen.

I forgot about their promotions in 2013 and 2014.

That's not what I said. My point was that it's important to get the decision right, eventually, once. As all of your examples have proven. By the same measure, if something's not right with the decision that's been taken, change it, learn from it, make a better one. Again, I cite your examples of the right and wrong ways to do it.

But I don't think we should simply use the yardstick of some arbitrary limit of how many shit managers we've already got rid off to vindicate sticking with Bruce. He's an outmoded manager, and, in my opinion, he's not the man to take us up. He might wake up one June morning shouting "eureka!" having had an epiphany about how successful football is played in the here and now, but I won't be betting on it.

A Bruce team would have gotten a draw from the Sheffield Wednesday away, most likely ground out 1:0 vs Huddersfield, obviously beat Rotherham, what happened at home vs Forrest wouldn't have happened I'm 100% confident with that, Brentford once again ground out a 1:0, same with Bristol City.

Let's face it 1st Transfer window he got he got rid of Westwood so clearly could see the problem unlike the managers previously. Bruce is the best of what is currently available. Everyone is saying Dean Smith but remember everyone was also calling for Lambert and he had 2 consecutive promotions unlike Dean Smith. Bruce has a solid track record down here so he'll be given a pre season and see what he can do when we aren't playing catch up.

And how many games that we won, should we only have picked up a point at best.

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2104 on: May 01, 2017, 03:31:14 PM »
The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

He won promotion from the Championship last season. Has the game really moved on that much in the last 12 months?

You missed the point, that he will not change his style, a style that is year by year becoming out dated.  As I said, his success is his weakness in that he has not developed as a manager.  12 months ago Hull scraped promotion through the play-offs and won in the final, when arguably they were not the better team. Each time he has been promoted, he has been left with a team that was ill-equipped for the PL.

Offline cdbullyweefan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2105 on: May 01, 2017, 03:35:46 PM »


Nobody talks Villa down as much as Villa fans.
Absolutely this, Lerner did a bang on job of lowering our expectations, the acceptance of mediocrity is rife.

I'm not talking us down, I see Liverpool, Leeds l, Newcastle etc getting stick on here because their supporters (or some of them) are living on past glories. Four decades ago we were league champions, over 20 years since we last won a trophy. We stank the Premier League out until we were relegated and are about to finish 20 plus points behind Brighton, Reading and Huddersfield Town.

Whereas Bournemouth have been Champions of Europe for each of the last twenty years?

I'm not suggesting we go and poach the Liverpool or Man United managers. I'm saying we should go and get the manager from Bournemouth.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2106 on: May 01, 2017, 03:42:58 PM »
The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

He won promotion from the Championship last season. Has the game really moved on that much in the last 12 months?

You missed the point, that he will not change his style, a style that is year by year becoming out dated.  As I said, his success is his weakness in that he has not developed as a manager.  12 months ago Hull scraped promotion through the play-offs and won in the final, when arguably they were not the better team. Each time he has been promoted, he has been left with a team that was ill-equipped for the PL.

Would you not settle for going up via the play off's or is that just 'scraping up'?

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2107 on: May 01, 2017, 03:46:06 PM »
The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

He won promotion from the Championship last season. Has the game really moved on that much in the last 12 months?

You missed the point, that he will not change his style, a style that is year by year becoming out dated.  As I said, his success is his weakness in that he has not developed as a manager.  12 months ago Hull scraped promotion through the play-offs and won in the final, when arguably they were not the better team. Each time he has been promoted, he has been left with a team that was ill-equipped for the PL.

Would you not settle for going up via the play off's or is that just 'scraping up'?

I would not want to be setting that as a maximum we can attain.  We have to be aiming for top 2.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2108 on: May 01, 2017, 03:47:50 PM »
I don't see the relevance of what Bournemouth have or haven't won in the last 20 years, fact is they will end the season a Premier League team and we will end it a Championship team, a pretty poor one. I'd love Ernie Howe to come here but he didn't last long at Burnley and will no doubt get better offers than from a club who go through managers at an alarming rate if he does decide he fancies a change.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2109 on: May 01, 2017, 03:52:17 PM »
The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

He won promotion from the Championship last season. Has the game really moved on that much in the last 12 months?

You missed the point, that he will not change his style, a style that is year by year becoming out dated.  As I said, his success is his weakness in that he has not developed as a manager.  12 months ago Hull scraped promotion through the play-offs and won in the final, when arguably they were not the better team. Each time he has been promoted, he has been left with a team that was ill-equipped for the PL.

Would you not settle for going up via the play off's or is that just 'scraping up'?

I would not want to be setting that as a maximum we can attain.  We have to be aiming for top 2.

Of course the aim should be for automatic but going up via the play offs shouldnt be sniffed at. It's still promotion.

Offline cdbullyweefan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2110 on: May 01, 2017, 03:52:26 PM »
He might get better offers if we don't move quickly, yes. At present I can't think of any Premier League job which is likely to become available this Summer.

You don't like talking about history, fine. You'd still have to be amazingly blinkered not to think that we have more potential than Bournemouth, if managed correctly.

If you think we should stick by Bruce, fine, make your arguments in his favour here. Suggesting that we could never hope to appoint a manager from a team in the division above, even though that's exactly what we did last time we were outside the top flight, is a bizarre argument.


Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2111 on: May 01, 2017, 04:06:51 PM »
I think words are being put in my mouth here, I haven't a clue who should be the next Villa manager, I don't follow football that closely and yes I thought Bruce would do better than he has. I was at Highbury and in Rotterdam and they were two of my favourite days but as I said it was a long time ago and has no bearing on where we find ourselves now.

Offline cdbullyweefan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2112 on: May 01, 2017, 04:15:23 PM »
Fair enough. Assumed you were pro-Bruce due to his Hull connections, apologies for the false assumption.

I still struggle to see how you can't see that we have more potential than sodding Bournemouth though!

I do believe we can learn from the past. We appointed visionary managers to get us out of the second tier in the thirties, the seventies and the eighties and should be looking to do so again. Steve Bruce just doesn't seem to be that man.

I wanted to be wrong about Bruce, but here we are, thirty games or so in, and we are still shit. It would have been unfair to expect promotion given the poor start Di Matteo left us with. I don't think it unreasonable to think we should be showing signs of challenging for promotion next year though, and we appear just as far off as ever based on recent performances.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2113 on: May 01, 2017, 04:25:26 PM »
I was all for Bruce when he was appointed but from what I've seen so far he doesn't appear to be the answer, we seem to be a collection of good Championship players with no cohesive plan of how to get the best out of them other than hit and hope.

Offline FranzBiberkopf

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2114 on: May 01, 2017, 04:29:34 PM »
Bruce was always second choice. Dyche was who we wanted. In fact I heard he accepted only to change his mind at the last minute.

I would expect us to go back in for him in the summer (not that I have any inside track). Just he could leave Burnley with head held high ("I've kept them up") based on the fact that keeping them up is the best he could ever possibly hope for there as they haven't enough money to push on further.