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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 323693 times)

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2085 on: May 01, 2017, 12:52:58 PM »
I've said before it needs to be someone who has worked with young players and improved them.  It needs to be someone who has experience of managing a club where they're expected to win most weeks. It needs to be someone who will help create a club identity and style.

The biggest problem is knowing just how attractive we can be.  If we can sell ourselves well then someone like Frank de Boer would be the perfect choice but he'd take a lot of convincing, he is out of work though and was apparently willing to talk to Rangers.  As cd has advocated Eddie Howe would be another good option.  A few of the other names on here worry me a little (Smith, Wagner) because I don't think they've had any real pressure before and that's the bit that makes managers and players wilt when they arrive.

Going a little leftfield AVB is currently managing in China and as a result Xia will probably be aware of him and his style.  He'll be on big money but he'd be a good option as well.

I only think we can get that calibre once we're back in the prem. If we're mid table in the prem then yes with Xia's stated future ambitions for the club I'd expect us to go for a Howe, De Boer or Brendan Rodgers or whoever the up and coming managers are then given there's no guarantee at all we'll be there in two years time.

Difference with Newcastle is they got Benitez while still in the prem and everyone expected he'd keep them up. He didn't but saw enough potential in the club to pay off.

Simply put it doesn't hurt to ask.  My issue with our hiring process for years is that we seem to always think we couldn't possibly get someone good so we'll settle for who's available.  McLeish being the ultimate example of that.  If you want to get someone like that you have to ask early and try to get them in with an entire summer, if we hang on until October to see if Bruce can be better then you're right, they're out of our reach.

The point to get in a very capable European manager to push us on was surely when we'd finished 6th three times. I'm always surprised more people don't look at that period as a massive missed opportunity.

Yes we'd just sold Milner but we still had Young and Downing in the squad and would sign Bent 6 months later so significant money was still there in that period.

I liken it to Spurs. They'd finished 5th and 6th under AVB and Sherwood and then Levy made the inspired choice of getting in Pochettino to push them even further.

We appointed a semi retired bloke from France who was a good manager 6 years before we appointed him, the equivalent of us signing Ginola and Schmeichel.

It was a massive missed opportunity that set us off on a slow downward spiral that acceletated with Lambert and McLeish.

Love or hate MON but one thing he did do right was get the clubs mentality back to how it was in the 90s. We became a team tough to beat again and could give anyone in the division a game (bar the one blow out result a season like 5-0 at Liverpool or 7-1 at Chelsea).

I agree but I think the next summer was an even bigger mistake.  I can accept the reasoning for Houllier but to turn back to a dinosaur like McLeish was the worst managerial decision we've ever made, he was the exact opposite of what we needed at the time.  My concern is that Bruce now is repeating the same mistake.

Offline luke95

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2086 on: May 01, 2017, 12:56:37 PM »
Would you risk your credibility on a big ask at the villa. Demanding fans big club and an owner who will only settle for the best. In other words the issue being you would ld need to be out work to be interested with a possible exception of dean smith perhaps

I'm not sure that's true.  The appeal of a club like ours is easily summed up by the way we talk about Graham Taylor.  To manage a club like Villa you need an ego (and ability to back it up) and if you have a big enough ego to be willing to take the risk then you've probably got the right mentality to make a success of it.

Aston Villa & football as a whole are a different world to how it was almost 30yrs ago .

and yet we still employ managers who want to play football from then and if people try to suggest we really need to change that we get told by some that 6 months of Garde and 8 months of Houllier were our attempts to change and they failed so we should just stick with something safe and simple.  That's why it needs someone with a ego/huge self-confidence because they need to be willing to stick to their guns and force a change in the mentality and drag the club along with them.

If Eddie Howe has the ego & self confidence he'd see Villa as no more than a side step .

Villa then were still very highly regarded as a club & recent European champs that was what pulled Graham Taylor
We ain't that club no longer & havnt been for some time .

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2087 on: May 01, 2017, 01:04:01 PM »
Would you risk your credibility on a big ask at the villa. Demanding fans big club and an owner who will only settle for the best. In other words the issue being you would ld need to be out work to be interested with a possible exception of dean smith perhaps

I'm not sure that's true.  The appeal of a club like ours is easily summed up by the way we talk about Graham Taylor.  To manage a club like Villa you need an ego (and ability to back it up) and if you have a big enough ego to be willing to take the risk then you've probably got the right mentality to make a success of it.

Aston Villa & football as a whole are a different world to how it was almost 30yrs ago .

and yet we still employ managers who want to play football from then and if people try to suggest we really need to change that we get told by some that 6 months of Garde and 8 months of Houllier were our attempts to change and they failed so we should just stick with something safe and simple.  That's why it needs someone with a ego/huge self-confidence because they need to be willing to stick to their guns and force a change in the mentality and drag the club along with them.

If Eddie Howe has the ego & self confidence he'd see Villa as no more than a side step .

Villa then were still very highly regarded as a club & recent European champs that was what pulled Graham Taylor
We ain't that club no longer & havnt been for some time .

If you honestly believe that we're not potentially a massive step up from Bournemouth then you've just not been paying attention.  The potential is the key, Bournemouth are the best they've ever been right now, we've at our lowest point in over 50 years.

Online old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2088 on: May 01, 2017, 01:13:12 PM »
The argument for bringing in Bruce and for many wanting to keep him is that he is a 'promotion expert'.  It is actually his success that is his weakness.  The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

Offline luke95

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2089 on: May 01, 2017, 01:29:13 PM »
Would you risk your credibility on a big ask at the villa. Demanding fans big club and an owner who will only settle for the best. In other words the issue being you would ld need to be out work to be interested with a possible exception of dean smith perhaps

I'm not sure that's true.  The appeal of a club like ours is easily summed up by the way we talk about Graham Taylor.  To manage a club like Villa you need an ego (and ability to back it up) and if you have a big enough ego to be willing to take the risk then you've probably got the right mentality to make a success of it.

Aston Villa & football as a whole are a different world to how it was almost 30yrs ago .

and yet we still employ managers who want to play football from then and if people try to suggest we really need to change that we get told by some that 6 months of Garde and 8 months of Houllier were our attempts to change and they failed so we should just stick with something safe and simple.  That's why it needs someone with a ego/huge self-confidence because they need to be willing to stick to their guns and force a change in the mentality and drag the club along with them.

If Eddie Howe has the ego & self confidence he'd see Villa as no more than a side step .

Villa then were still very highly regarded as a club & recent European champs that was what pulled Graham Taylor
We ain't that club no longer & havnt been for some time .

If you honestly believe that we're not potentially a massive step up from Bournemouth then you've just not been paying attention.  The potential is the key, Bournemouth are the best they've ever been right now, we've at our lowest point in over 50 years.
I honestly believe we no longer have the pull we once had , hence why we've had the likes of McLeish, Garde, RDM & Bruce as recent mangers .
We're light years behind the elite clubs. As we currently stand we would be no more than a side step from Bournemouth for Eddie Howe. Potential counts for nothing in today's football

Offline auntiesledd

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2090 on: May 01, 2017, 01:37:43 PM »
Eddie Howe? We'd be more likely to bring in Don Howe these days - and he's been dead for nearly 18 months!

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2091 on: May 01, 2017, 01:47:10 PM »
We won the European Cup THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO, whether we like the thought or not a move from Bournemouth to a mid table Championship team would be a backward step.

Offline Richard E

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2092 on: May 01, 2017, 01:52:10 PM »
We won the European Cup THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO, whether we like the thought or not a move from Bournemouth to a mid table Championship team would be a backward step.

Exactly. I didn't find Villa fans singing 'have you won the European Cup?' to Arsenal fans at the tube station after the Cup Final a great comfort.

Offline cdbullyweefan

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2093 on: May 01, 2017, 01:53:00 PM »
The day we can't compete with fucking Bournemouth is the day we might as well close the club down and sell off the stadium.

Nobody talks Villa down as much as Villa fans.

Offline Ad@m

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2094 on: May 01, 2017, 01:56:53 PM »
The success has been over a long period of time but based on the same style, a style that is now not compatible with the way football should be played today.

He won promotion from the Championship last season. Has the game really moved on that much in the last 12 months?

Offline Marlon From Bearwood

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2095 on: May 01, 2017, 02:00:53 PM »
If (big if) we can attract a Howe / Wagner / Silva / Jakonovic type of young, exciting manager, then get rid of Bruce and get them in as soon as their season ends.

If we can't, then we might as well stick with Bruce for a bit longer. No point replacing him with a Pardew / McLaren type, in other words more of the same.

Online LukeJames

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2096 on: May 01, 2017, 02:04:45 PM »


Nobody talks Villa down as much as Villa fans.
Absolutely this, Lerner did a bang on job of lowering our expectations, the acceptance of mediocrity is rife.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2097 on: May 01, 2017, 02:06:42 PM »
Would you risk your credibility on a big ask at the villa. Demanding fans big club and an owner who will only settle for the best. In other words the issue being you would ld need to be out work to be interested with a possible exception of dean smith perhaps

I'm not sure that's true.  The appeal of a club like ours is easily summed up by the way we talk about Graham Taylor.  To manage a club like Villa you need an ego (and ability to back it up) and if you have a big enough ego to be willing to take the risk then you've probably got the right mentality to make a success of it.

Aston Villa & football as a whole are a different world to how it was almost 30yrs ago .

and yet we still employ managers who want to play football from then and if people try to suggest we really need to change that we get told by some that 6 months of Garde and 8 months of Houllier were our attempts to change and they failed so we should just stick with something safe and simple.  That's why it needs someone with a ego/huge self-confidence because they need to be willing to stick to their guns and force a change in the mentality and drag the club along with them.

If Eddie Howe has the ego & self confidence he'd see Villa as no more than a side step .

Villa then were still very highly regarded as a club & recent European champs that was what pulled Graham Taylor
We ain't that club no longer & havnt been for some time .

If you honestly believe that we're not potentially a massive step up from Bournemouth then you've just not been paying attention.  The potential is the key, Bournemouth are the best they've ever been right now, we've at our lowest point in over 50 years.

Slightly hyperbolic, it's just over 40 years since we were in the third division. I think you would be hard pressed to make a case for this this being a lower point than that. A more accurate comparison would be 1987, thirty years ago, when we were in a similar state to now. The game has changed hugely since then and the prestige attached to the club which attracted Graham Taylor has been eroded over the course of this century, I don't think Howe would see us as a good bet at the moment. Perhaps as the man who takes over from the man who gets us promoted but as it stands why risk his reputation when there will inevitably be other options?

Online olaftab

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2098 on: May 01, 2017, 02:15:58 PM »
We won the European Cup THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO, whether we like the thought or not a move from Bournemouth to a mid table Championship team would be a backward step.
Exactly. I didn't find Villa fans singing 'have you won the European Cup?' to Arsenal fans at the tube station after the Cup Final a great comfort.
Yes OK but I assume Howe is ambitious and at an age when he wants to go and take on challenges where he has some possibility of  having the resources to compete  in the top half of the first division. Now he has done very well with Bournemouth however with their maximum 10K crowds there is not much chance that he will carry on making silk purses there. I am sure if Keoman walks from Everton at the end of the season he will be appointed there however other than that  Villa are one of the Clubs  along with aforementioned, Newcastle, West Ham and maybe Stoke where he can go and develop himself. Other than that he is not going to go to the top 6 anytime soon so it's up to our owners as to how much we are prepared to push this IMO.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:18:29 PM by olaftab »

Offline stuart445

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Re: Bruce out?
« Reply #2099 on: May 01, 2017, 02:36:07 PM »
If we sack Bruce we will turn into Leeds, who change manager every season they don't get promoted, the fact they haven't been promoted is proof that model doesn't work.

You mean not like Watford, then? All that's "proof" of is that it's important to get the decision right. Once will do.[\b]

Quote
Look at the top 2 Newcastle very little change from last season have a manager that had he been appointed earlier would have kept them up. Brighton who have been settled for a long time their promotion has been years in the making.

..... who before settling on Hughton, had four managers over 2013 and 2014.[\b]

Oh yes the law of averages appoint 10 managers and hope that 1 works. I'm glad you aren't running the club. So it's worked for 1 club so let's ignore the multiple clubs it hasn't worked for then. That is the best logic I have ever seen.

I forgot about their promotions in 2013 and 2014.

That's not what I said. My point was that it's important to get the decision right, eventually, once. As all of your examples have proven. By the same measure, if something's not right with the decision that's been taken, change it, learn from it, make a better one. Again, I cite your examples of the right and wrong ways to do it.

But I don't think we should simply use the yardstick of some arbitrary limit of how many shit managers we've already got rid off to vindicate sticking with Bruce. He's an outmoded manager, and, in my opinion, he's not the man to take us up. He might wake up one June morning shouting "eureka!" having had an epiphany about how successful football is played in the here and now, but I won't be betting on it.

A Bruce team would have gotten a draw from the Sheffield Wednesday away, most likely ground out 1:0 vs Huddersfield, obviously beat Rotherham, what happened at home vs Forrest wouldn't have happened I'm 100% confident with that, Brentford once again ground out a 1:0, same with Bristol City.

Let's face it 1st Transfer window he got he got rid of Westwood so clearly could see the problem unlike the managers previously. Bruce is the best of what is currently available. Everyone is saying Dean Smith but remember everyone was also calling for Lambert and he had 2 consecutive promotions unlike Dean Smith. Bruce has a solid track record down here so he'll be given a pre season and see what he can do when we aren't playing catch up.