Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[paul_e]

we were second. The problem was, we were always too far behind the other main challengers . Playing catch up over 46 games is nigh on impossible, even Fulham's stupendous run saw them fall short. Cardiff came out of the traps like demented banshee's and apart from one blip, were always there or there abouts. Once we'd lost to QPR and Bolton, our chance of automatic promotion had gone, because we had no cushion, particularly with Cardiff having games in hand.

We did sneak into 2nd but it took an exceptional effort to get there and we just couldn't keep that level up.

[Clampy]

I'm disappointed that we didn't go straight up because we should have but what's done is done. There's another game to go and we have another chance.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

It never eased to amaze me how inanimate both RDM and Clarke were in the dug out. Zero passion and both seemed terminally bored by what was in front of them.

Exactly, which is why I think something happened early doors between them. My guess is RDM acting like an arrogant tosser and treating Clarke like a fool when he was/is a far more experienced coach/manager. Who knows but it stank.

RDM was by far the more experienced manager of the two. Clarke had a season and a half in charge of Albion and a season and a half in charge of Reading. RDM had taken MK Dons into the play offs, got Albion promoted into the Premier League and won the FA cup and Champions League with Chelsea. They were 3-1 down from the first leg against Napoli in the last sixteen when he took over, turned that round on aggregate and went on to win the trophy.

Manager, yes but look at his experience. In eight years in management before joining us he amassed a grand total of 210 games, most of those at MK Dons and the Baggies.
He lasted almost a year at MK Dons, a season and a half at the Albion, less than half a season at Chelsea, less than 8 months in Germany and yup, 12 games at Villa Park.

Compare that to Clarke's record since 1998 alongside Gullit, Mourinho, Grant, Dalglish, Zola at West Ham (9th), West Brom, even Reading and now Kilmarnock from bottom of the league to 5th in 7th months.

One's a knowledgeable football man, the other a chancer. I'll let you decide who you prefer but I know who I'd want in my dug out.

[ktvillan]

It wasn't every game though, was it, albeit too many.  However playing good attacking football is hardly the sign of a team in a tailspin with a one way ticket to relegation and not much of a foundation for heading the other way.  For me there were signs that we had a perfectly good foundation (attack wise at least) we just needed to tighten up defensively and concentration wise.

Under RDM we conceded 6 times in the last 10 mins (only once was it irrelevant because 1 was the 3rd Bristol City goal).  if you take the games we conceded in the last 10 mins and say we had held that lead we'd have 19 points (5 wins 4 Draws 2 loses) instead we had 10 points (1 win 7 draws 3 loses )

Now if you look at Bruce's 1st 11 games with with the same players as RDM, we conceded 1 goal in the last 10 mins which is irrelevant because it was the 2nd Leeds goal so like the Bristol one it didn't cost us anything.  In Bruce's 1st 11 games we pick up 21 points (6 Wins 3 Draws 2 Loses) 

So Bruce with the exact same team with the same amount of games as RDM picks up more than double the amount of points.  What is the point of playing lovely attacking football if all it achieves is scoring the same amount of goals as you concede.

I still don't view 1 win and 7 draws from 11 games as a team hurtling uncontrollably towards a second successive relegation.  It could be seen that way if you are of a very nervous disposition, or it could be seen as a partial steadying of a very leaky ship, a work in progress that maybe just needed a little more tweaking and bedding in of new players to set it off in the right direction.   Conceding late was a bad habit, and seemed to be a confidence thing that could have been worked on.  But generally our play was good and positive, and it looked to me like it just needed to click or our luck to turn and we would be away. How many times did we hit the woodwork in those first few games? I think Ayew alone must have done so 3 or 4 times.  Unfortunately a couple of dreadful performances seemed to be enough to tip the balance against RDM, which seemed a little harsh to me.  As Clampy has hinted, maybe there was more to it.   Yes Bruce got off to a decent start but as we all know he has had some bloody awful runs, the most recent of which have cost us an automatic spot that a squad like ours should have been well capable of achieving.   RDM didn't really have a chance to turn things around, Bruce has been allowed several fallow periods.  It may not matter in the end but for me at least it doesn't alter that Bruce has done nothing particularly special to get us to 4th after the best part of two seasons in charge. 

[mr underhill]

I know lots of WBA supporters and they all say RDM was a lazy manager who rarely turned up to training or anywhere else connected to the club during the week.That indifference certainly revealed itself to me during his mercifully brief tenure at B6

[stuart445]

It wasn't every game though, was it, albeit too many.  However playing good attacking football is hardly the sign of a team in a tailspin with a one way ticket to relegation and not much of a foundation for heading the other way.  For me there were signs that we had a perfectly good foundation (attack wise at least) we just needed to tighten up defensively and concentration wise.

Under RDM we conceded 6 times in the last 10 mins (only once was it irrelevant because 1 was the 3rd Bristol City goal).  if you take the games we conceded in the last 10 mins and say we had held that lead we'd have 19 points (5 wins 4 Draws 2 loses) instead we had 10 points (1 win 7 draws 3 loses )

Now if you look at Bruce's 1st 11 games with with the same players as RDM, we conceded 1 goal in the last 10 mins which is irrelevant because it was the 2nd Leeds goal so like the Bristol one it didn't cost us anything.  In Bruce's 1st 11 games we pick up 21 points (6 Wins 3 Draws 2 Loses) 

So Bruce with the exact same team with the same amount of games as RDM picks up more than double the amount of points.  What is the point of playing lovely attacking football if all it achieves is scoring the same amount of goals as you concede.

I still don't view 1 win and 7 draws from 11 games as a team hurtling uncontrollably towards a second successive relegation.  It could be seen that way if you are of a very nervous disposition, or it could be seen as a partial steadying of a very leaky ship, a work in progress that maybe just needed a little more tweaking and bedding in of new players to set it off in the right direction.   Conceding late was a bad habit, and seemed to be a confidence thing that could have been worked on.  But generally our play was good and positive, and it looked to me like it just needed to click or our luck to turn and we would be away. How many times did we hit the woodwork in those first few games? I think Ayew alone must have done so 3 or 4 times.  Unfortunately a couple of dreadful performances seemed to be enough to tip the balance against RDM, which seemed a little harsh to me.  As Clampy has hinted, maybe there was more to it.   Yes Bruce got off to a decent start but as we all know he has had some bloody awful runs, the most recent of which have cost us an automatic spot that a squad like ours should have been well capable of achieving.   RDM didn't really have a chance to turn things around, Bruce has been allowed several fallow periods.  It may not matter in the end but for me at least it doesn't alter that Bruce has done nothing particularly special to get us to 4th after the best part of two seasons in charge.

You don't see only winning 1 game in 11 as a sign of a downward spiral? Well thank the lord you're not in a position of power in the club as you'd have us playing Luton Town in the league before long.

As I have already pointed out I've used the same amount of games with the exact same team and Bruce got 21 points to RDMs 10.  It's ridiculous that people still think RDM was on the brink of greatness but yet Bruce is awful when with the same team with the same amount of games he got more than double the amount of points.

[SoccerHQ]

I doubt we'd have gone down but already after two months we were a fair way off top 6 so board felt they had to act rather than let things drift up to Christmas.

When SB came in we were on a night unbeaten run for two months but were still 5-6 points off the top 6 so gives you scale of how terrible our start was.

[paul_e]

You don't see only winning 1 game in 11 as a sign of a downward spiral? Well thank the lord you're not in a position of power in the club as you'd have us playing Luton Town in the league before long.

As I have already pointed out I've used the same amount of games with the exact same team and Bruce got 21 points to RDMs 10.  It's ridiculous that people still think RDM was on the brink of greatness but yet Bruce is awful when with the same team with the same amount of games he got more than double the amount of points.

If anyone said anything like that then you'd have a point.

What people were saying is that a lot of the rebuilding work, in squad terms, was already done.  The fact that Bruce got 21 points in his first 11 games without a transfer window backs that up perfectly.  There were a couple of places where we were short and there was an obvious mentality issue that needed to be addressed, which he did, but we weren't in a tailspin and looking likely to be relegated.  You just have to look at post on here from around the time he was appointed and look at the odds that bookies were still offering on us making the playoffs at the time, no one thought it was an impossible task to make up the ground and as SoccerHQ says the main reason behind the change wasn't to avoid relegation but rather to stop us drifting too far from the playoffs.

Let's remember this discussion started by someone suggesting that people were underestimating the job that Bruce has done and people are just saying that, despite being a bit shit, RDM had actually made a very decent start on 'fixing' the squad and was sacked because we were well below where we should've been at the time. This isn't dismissing anything Bruce has done but merely saying that where we are currently isn't outside the expectations everyone had of where the club should be before he got the job so his overall performance has been very much on par.  The only other managers we've had in the 2nd division in 40 years are RDM (who was shit) and Taylor (who was great), Bruce is somewhere in the middle.

[ktvillan]

Indeed Paul, I don't think anyone is arguing RDM was the messiah.  As for only one win in 11, very true, but another way of looking at is unbeaten in 8 out of 11 which again hardly indicates uncontrollable nosedive territory, even it was something of an underachievement.  I'd agree that the change wasn't out of fear of further relegation but of getting a little too far adrift of the top 6. A different proposition altogether.  And despite Bruce's good start, and being allowed to bring in some of his own players in January, we still ended up nowhere bloody near.  Bruce may have done better with RDM's players but little point in that when he then went backwards after adding his own players and shipping a few of RDM's out.   

Stuart I still believe there was no cause for panic over relegation and that RDMs record indicated he was more likely to take us up the table than down a league, despite the short term indifferent form.  11 games trying to turn around a basket case isn't much to go on is it?   

[chrisw1]

There always going to be different perspectives. 

You may not see a tailspin Kt, but others may say that before Bruce joined we had only won one game under RDM (against the mighty Rotherham).  Prior to that our previous win was 6-Feb-16 against Norwich and our last away win 8-Aug-15 .  We had won only 4 league games in total in an entire calendar year.

Bruce joined 12-Oct-16.  By Christmas we had won 7 games (including our first away win in over 15 months), drawn 2 lost 2.

Whatever then followed that season, and yes there were several negatives, to suggest he didn't turn round a downward spiral is bordering on ridiculous.

[stuart445]

Indeed Paul, I don't think anyone is arguing RDM was the messiah.  As for only one win in 11, very true, but another way of looking at is unbeaten in 8 out of 11 which again hardly indicates uncontrollable nosedive territory, even it was something of an underachievement.  I'd agree that the change wasn't out of fear of further relegation but of getting a little too far adrift of the top 6. A different proposition altogether.  And despite Bruce's good start, and being allowed to bring in some of his own players in January, we still ended up nowhere bloody near.  Bruce may have done better with RDM's players but little point in that when he then went backwards after adding his own players and shipping a few of RDM's out.   

Stuart I still believe there was no cause for panic over relegation and that RDMs record indicated he was more likely to take us up the table than down a league, despite the short term indifferent form.  11 games trying to turn around a basket case isn't much to go on is it?

No cause for panic when we got relegated we won 3 games in 38 that is a ratio of 1 win for every 12 games played, so yes 1 win in 11 is cause for panic as it was nearly the same ratio as when we got relegated.

What you are constantly saying is speculation that has no proof to back it up, it's all I believe this I think that.  I'm struggling to see how having the same win ratio of a season where we finished bottom and was the worst in our history points in any way shape or form that we were more likely going to climb the table.

[paul_e]

There always going to be different perspectives. 

You may not see a tailspin Kt, but others may say that before Bruce joined we had only won one game under RDM (against the mighty Rotherham).  Prior to that our previous win was 6-Feb-16 against Norwich and our last away win 8-Aug-15 .  We had won only 4 league games in total in an entire calendar year.

Bruce joined 12-Oct-16.  By Christmas we had won 7 games (including our first away win in over 15 months), drawn 2 lost 2.

Whatever then followed that season, and yes there were several negatives, to suggest he didn't turn round a downward spiral is bordering on ridiculous.

It really isn't because you have to look at it as a bigger picture.  The work to turn around the club/squad was started in the summer when Xia arrived.  That included big spending and the purchase of Chester, Jedinak and Adomah who've been massive for us this year and Kodjia who was superb last year.  Add to that Hutton and Grealish already at the club and you've got half a team that is easily good enough for automatic promotion that is still at the club. Then consider that we still had Amavi and Ayew who have both performed well at a higher level this season and it's fair to say that a big part of the job was done. The problem was the RDM just wasn't the right person to fix the mentality because he'd never bene in a job where he had to rebuild a squad that was mentally broken and he just showed he was incapable of doing it.


Bruce on other hand has done that a few times and that experience allowed him to carry the job on.  What I'm getting at is that just because RDM was rubbish at the day-to-day job and under-achieved with the squad he helped build doesn't mean that Bruce over-achieved in getting them to perform closer to the standard you'd expect. He will, if we get promoted, have reached what was a perfectly reasonable target for this club this year, no more and no less. That's after finishing lower than anyone would've reasonably expected last season.  This isn't even me wanting to complain about him, I'm just saying that I think you're massively misjudging how big the job he had to do was and using that to suggest he's been far more successful than he has. We're the biggest club in this division by quite a distance and we've spent and recruited a squad which reflects that, being in the playoffs is the absolute minimum anyone would expect in those circumstances, especially given 3 transfer windows and 35 game 'free hit' as a bedding in period.  As I've said before, I genuinely think any decent manager should be able to achieve that and that the run of shit managers has made us lose sight of what a competent but average manager looks like and some people are seeing him as much more than that.

[chrisw1]

It really does sound like you're just been churlish for the sake of it.

Anyway, here's hoping we finish it off tomorrow.

UTV.

[Mister E]

I was a fan of the RDM-Clarke axis because I thought the arrogance (and experience) of the former would blend well with the coaching acumen that the latter was renowned for.
After attending the Preston debacle I felt that both were already looking defeated; there was already a resignation that this might be a job too big for them. Strange, really, because both had great playing and managing / coaching experience.
Would I roll back the clock for them? - probably not. Am I happy with their replacement? - I'll answer that on Sunday (although I'll probably never be happy having SB as manager; but that's my problem)!

[paul_e]

It really does sound like you're just been churlish for the sake of it.

Anyway, here's hoping we finish it off tomorrow.

UTV.

Whereas for me it just sounds like you're posting a lot of hyperbole to support your position.

I'll agree with the rest though, hopefully he can get us up for it tomorrow and we'll see a Wolves-like performance, do that and we'll all be happy.