Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[SoccerHQ]

Would've probably been better to just give Clarke the main job, he's done well at Kilmarnock.

[Risso]

I think what RDM had done in those 11 matches with the help of Xia was to have bailed out enough water to stop the ship sinking. The thought was that he couldn't bail the rest of the water out fast enough by the end of the season to get us promoted.  I think at times it gets forgotten how many players he moved on and brought in in a short period of time and some missed half of his games in charge.

I think Bruce benefitted from the groundwork that RDM did, whereas RDM didn't.

i don't think RDM had the passion or work ethic for the job, it was always beneath him and i felt he came over as a bit of a lazy mananger, his style of play and some of his buys were ok but for me his heart was never in it

i've never been a Bruce fan but he does do the groundwork at this level its not pretty but it can be effective

I think you’re right.  I remember watching the defeat to Luton on TV and when they scored he just sort of smirked.

His last defeat away to Preston was an absolute omnishambles.

[purpletrousers]

I remember watching the defeat to Luton on TV and when they scored he just sort of smirked.

His last defeat away to Preston was an absolute omnishambles.

Please let us not mention that night again. From initial domination through exhibition style football descending to utter implosion. Then a night in a sheer horror Air BnB.

[mr underhill]

It never eased to amaze me how inanimate both RDM and Clarke were in the dug out. Zero passion and both seemed terminally bored by what was in front of them.

[villabear]

Great interview with him just on Talksport (I know).

Sounded really positive and looking forward to Saturday.

The main thing I got out of listening and my meaning for posting was he said the supporters have now got players and a team they can identify with and with the name of Aston Villa.

He also said it's took a while for the supporters to see what he's doing but now he thinks we all can see 'he's getting there'.

Like his football or not I really like the bloke. I'd have a pint with him. He'd pay though 😀

[ChicagoLion]

Great interview with him just on Talksport (I know).

Sounded really positive and looking forward to Saturday.

The main thing I got out of listening and my meaning for posting was he said the supporters have now got players and a team they can identify with and with the name of Aston Villa.

He also said it's took a while for the supporters to see what he's doing but now he thinks we all can see 'he's getting there'.

Like his football or not I really like the bloke. I'd have a pint with him. He'd pay though 😀

I think Bruce is a decent bloke although I think he has limitations as a manager.
I would be really pleased for him if Saturday could provide some relief from what  has been a very tough period in his life.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

It never eased to amaze me how inanimate both RDM and Clarke were in the dug out. Zero passion and both seemed terminally bored by what was in front of them.

Exactly, which is why I think something happened early doors between them. My guess is RDM acting like an arrogant tosser and treating Clarke like a fool when he was/is a far more experienced coach/manager. Who knows but it stank.

[ktvillan]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

We practically had to rebuild a new squad from scratch and at the same time completely change the culture from 6 years of failure.

It's clear you don't want to give Bruce credit and that's your prerogative.  But you're not comparing apples with apples.  Sunderland is a far better comparison.  Yes we spent a lot more than them - but we were in broadly the same starting position.

So Cardiff in 23rd and Derby in 20th were operating from a solid, stable base, whereas Villa in 19th, were in freefall?  Ok if you say so.  Cardiff's squad wasn't and still isn't anything special, and what Warnock has done with them, however ugly, is something special.  I don't happen to think what Bruce has done is anything that special given his resources.   The six years of failure had been under Lerner, not Xia and co. Unlike Sunderland we had rid ourselves of our useless American owner upon relegation.  Had we not I dare say it would have been a good comparison and we may well have dropped again.  As it is I don't think there is any likeness between Xia's Villa and Short's Sunderland.

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.  They may both been out of form but they were established mid table Championship teams - that was their solid base.

Derby finished
13-14 - 3rd
14-15 - 8th
15-16 - 5th


Cardiff finished
13-14 - relegated from prem
14-15 - 11th
15-16 - 8th

The point I am making is you keep going on about the money spent, but we had to pretty much rebuild the entire team.  The starting point of our squad was more akin to Sunderlands not Derby's or Cardiffs.

When Bruce took over we had McCormack and Kodija, two £12-£15m strikers, we also had Amavi who's just played in the Europa League final, Ayew who went back to the PL, and Westwood who also went back to the PL albeit as a squad filler, and Jedinak and Chester signed from the PL.  So I suppose you have a point when you say it isn't comparable to Cardiff or Derby, it was much, much better in squad and resources terms.  But even less comparable with Sunderland who needed a full rebuild but pretty much signed no-one of any note, still had a useless git of an owner and didn't seem that interested in addressing their slide.  Bruce was then given the funds to buy Hogan, Lansbury, Taylor, Hourihane, and Bree and still managed to finish behind Derby and Cardiff.  I really don't see any trees being pulled up there.  We had a couple of dreadful performances in the last days of  RDM and Clarke, but prior to hat we'd played some good attacking football and been unfortunate to concede some late equalizers.  We really weren't that bad, and RDM and Clarke weren't really given much chance to turn it around.     

[stuart445]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

We practically had to rebuild a new squad from scratch and at the same time completely change the culture from 6 years of failure.

It's clear you don't want to give Bruce credit and that's your prerogative.  But you're not comparing apples with apples.  Sunderland is a far better comparison.  Yes we spent a lot more than them - but we were in broadly the same starting position.

So Cardiff in 23rd and Derby in 20th were operating from a solid, stable base, whereas Villa in 19th, were in freefall?  Ok if you say so.  Cardiff's squad wasn't and still isn't anything special, and what Warnock has done with them, however ugly, is something special.  I don't happen to think what Bruce has done is anything that special given his resources.   The six years of failure had been under Lerner, not Xia and co. Unlike Sunderland we had rid ourselves of our useless American owner upon relegation.  Had we not I dare say it would have been a good comparison and we may well have dropped again.  As it is I don't think there is any likeness between Xia's Villa and Short's Sunderland.

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.  They may both been out of form but they were established mid table Championship teams - that was their solid base.

Derby finished
13-14 - 3rd
14-15 - 8th
15-16 - 5th


Cardiff finished
13-14 - relegated from prem
14-15 - 11th
15-16 - 8th

The point I am making is you keep going on about the money spent, but we had to pretty much rebuild the entire team.  The starting point of our squad was more akin to Sunderlands not Derby's or Cardiffs.

When Bruce took over we had McCormack and Kodija, two £12-£15m strikers, we also had Amavi who's just played in the Europa League final, Ayew who went back to the PL, and Westwood who also went back to the PL albeit as a squad filler, and Jedinak and Chester signed from the PL.  So I suppose you have a point when you say it isn't comparable to Cardiff or Derby, it was much, much better in squad and resources terms.  But even less comparable with Sunderland who needed a full rebuild but pretty much signed no-one of any note, still had a useless git of an owner and didn't seem that interested in addressing their slide.  Bruce was then given the funds to buy Hogan, Lansbury, Taylor, Hourihane, and Bree and still managed to finish behind Derby and Cardiff.  I really don't see any trees being pulled up there.  We had a couple of dreadful performances in the last days of  RDM and Clarke, but prior to hat we'd played some good attacking football and been unfortunate to concede some late equalizers.  We really weren't that bad, and RDM and Clarke weren't really given much chance to turn it around.     

Playing awesome attacking football maybe but only 1 victory.  Conceding 1 or 2 late goals is unfortunate but when it's every game then there is nothing unfortunate about it.

RDM spent loads but still went with Westwood in midfield that says it all really.

[ktvillan]

It wasn't every game though, was it, albeit too many.  However playing good attacking football is hardly the sign of a team in a tailspin with a one way ticket to relegation and not much of a foundation for heading the other way.  For me there were signs that we had a perfectly good foundation (attack wise at least) we just needed to tighten up defensively and concentration wise.

[Clampy]

I've always thought there was more to it than the results. You don't give a manager all that money just to sack them after 11 games.

[paul_e]

I've always thought there was more to it than the results. You don't give a manager all that money just to sack them after 11 games.

I agree with that. As suggested above I suspect there was a falling out between RDM, Clarke and/or Round to the point where it just wasn't going to work.  I do agree with kt in a lot of ways though, there was a glaring problem that needed to be fixed but the performances (bar the last 1-2) were good for 75-80 minutes until the nerves kicked in and we pretty obviously had a squad capable of pushing for the playoffs at least.

Bruce came in and fixed the defence (and in part addressed the mental weaknesses) but in doing so we lost a lot of the attacking intent and when teams realised that he had a run of results that were every bit as bad as anything under RDM and included some Dim Tim style chopping and changing as he flailed around for a solution.  This season has been much better but there have still been 2-3 periods where we've just not been good enough, which is why we were never really in the fight for 2nd.

[mr underhill]

we were second. The problem was, we were always too far behind the other main challengers . Playing catch up over 46 games is nigh on impossible, even Fulham's stupendous run saw them fall short. Cardiff came out of the traps like demented banshee's and apart from one blip, were always there or there abouts. Once we'd lost to QPR and Bolton, our chance of automatic promotion had gone, because we had no cushion, particularly with Cardiff having games in hand.

[stuart445]

It wasn't every game though, was it, albeit too many.  However playing good attacking football is hardly the sign of a team in a tailspin with a one way ticket to relegation and not much of a foundation for heading the other way.  For me there were signs that we had a perfectly good foundation (attack wise at least) we just needed to tighten up defensively and concentration wise.

Under RDM we conceded 6 times in the last 10 mins (only once was it irrelevant because 1 was the 3rd Bristol City goal).  if you take the games we conceded in the last 10 mins and say we had held that lead we'd have 19 points (5 wins 4 Draws 2 loses) instead we had 10 points (1 win 7 draws 3 loses )

Now if you look at Bruce's 1st 11 games with with the same players as RDM, we conceded 1 goal in the last 10 mins which is irrelevant because it was the 2nd Leeds goal so like the Bristol one it didn't cost us anything.  In Bruce's 1st 11 games we pick up 21 points (6 Wins 3 Draws 2 Loses) 

So Bruce with the exact same team with the same amount of games as RDM picks up more than double the amount of points.  What is the point of playing lovely attacking football if all it achieves is scoring the same amount of goals as you concede.

[Damo70]

It never eased to amaze me how inanimate both RDM and Clarke were in the dug out. Zero passion and both seemed terminally bored by what was in front of them.

Exactly, which is why I think something happened early doors between them. My guess is RDM acting like an arrogant tosser and treating Clarke like a fool when he was/is a far more experienced coach/manager. Who knows but it stank.

RDM was by far the more experienced manager of the two. Clarke had a season and a half in charge of Albion and a season and a half in charge of Reading. RDM had taken MK Dons into the play offs, got Albion promoted into the Premier League and won the FA cup and Champions League with Chelsea. They were 3-1 down from the first leg against Napoli in the last sixteen when he took over, turned that round on aggregate and went on to win the trophy.