Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[tomd2103]

He's done well last few weeks particularly with his personal circumstances.

I think whatever happens next Saturday he has my respect for stopping the rot and making us into a decent football team again with players giving everything for the shirt.

That is a great platform for the next manager to build on whenever that is.

Let's not forget though the target at the start of the season was top 2 (indeed John Terry said in his first interview he was coming here to win the league), we've fallen a fair bit short of that and now the target is to win the play offs.

I think if the financial situation wasn't to change dramatically I'd probably give him start of next season as we know under that criteria he'd have us somewhere in the top 6.

Likes of Snodgrass, Johnstone not being signed permanently and then suddenly having to replace some of our mid 30s players and I don't think he's the best man for the job in that situation.

Agree with that.  The club will have to be working in a different structure should we not win on Saturday and like you, I am not sure he would be the right man to oversee that.  If he gets us up, then it would be harsh to move him on, but I could see the logic in doing so.

Whatever happens next weekend, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the dignified manner in which he has handled himself over the past few months after what he has been through. 

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Whatever happens next weekend, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the dignified manner in which he has handled himself over the past few months after what he has been through. 

Well said, Tom. I would imagine that is something we can all agree on.

[Allan C]

Whatever happens next weekend, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the dignified manner in which he has handled himself over the past few months after what he has been through. 

Well said, Tom. I would imagine that is something we can all agree on.

Absolutely right 100%

[ktvillan]

4th in the Championship with the cost of our squad is no major achievement at all, it's the bare minimum, and in my opinion even something of a failure.  Top 2 should have been achievable with our resources.  We really weren't in a tailspin when Bruce took over, we were stuttering but reasonably stable.  I don't think there was ever any danger we would do a Sunderland.  I firmly believe that if RDM and Clarke had been given the slack and time that Bruce has been granted they would have achieved at least as much as Bruce and possibly more and sooner.   To say Bruce has done a fantastic job in turning us around is something of an exaggeration in my view, and in any case he took his bloody time.  I know he's had his personal traumas and fair play to him for soldiering on,   but that's a separate issue to the job he's done.   I think it's been sub-standard in both achievement and above all entertainment value.  I have honestly never been so bored watching Villa, not even under TSM, with his keep it tight and nick a goal mentality.  We don't deserve to go up because we only finished 4th, and a laboured 4th at that.   Whether we do go up or not, time to be ruthless.  If we stay down he's failed, full stop, and should go.  If we go up, there is no track record to say that he can achieve anything there, and we should look for someone better.   I don't buy that coming 4th in the Championship with the most expensive squad ever to play there, and a fair way behind a tupenny hapenny Cardiff team who will almost certainly come straight back down, earns you a crack at the premier league.  To keep him would be yet another example of the strange tendency for football to reward mediocrity and even failure.   

Falling out of the Premier League and then continuing to fall (we were in the championship relegation zone when he arrived remember) isn't a tailspin?

If that isn't a tailspin then what is?

When RDM was sacked after the Preston Game we were 19th out of 24, with 10 points from 11 games.  Not great admittedly, but no, not a tailspin either - what Sunderland did was a tailspin.   Bruce's bad runs,  such as his first 7 games of this season, after 30 odd games in charge and two transfer windows, weren't much better.   

Among those below us were Cardiff in 23rd and Derby in 20th.  Both finished above us that season, having spent little or nothing.  One finished well ahead of us this season, and the other managed a play off place, the same as us, again having spent little or nothing by comparison.   So I'll stick by my view that Bruce hasn't done anything that noteworthy, it's barely adequate given the resources at his disposal.

[chrisw1]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

We practically had to rebuild a new squad from scratch and at the same time completely change the culture from 6 years of failure.

It's clear you don't want to give Bruce credit and that's your prerogative.  But you're not comparing apples with apples.  Sunderland is a far better comparison.  Yes we spent a lot more than them - but we were in broadly the same starting position.

[Dave]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

Weren't Cardiff in the relegation zone when Warnock took over?

[ktvillan]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

We practically had to rebuild a new squad from scratch and at the same time completely change the culture from 6 years of failure.

It's clear you don't want to give Bruce credit and that's your prerogative.  But you're not comparing apples with apples.  Sunderland is a far better comparison.  Yes we spent a lot more than them - but we were in broadly the same starting position.

So Cardiff in 23rd and Derby in 20th were operating from a solid, stable base, whereas Villa in 19th, were in freefall?  Ok if you say so.  Cardiff's squad wasn't and still isn't anything special, and what Warnock has done with them, however ugly, is something special.  I don't happen to think what Bruce has done is anything that special given his resources.   The six years of failure had been under Lerner, not Xia and co. Unlike Sunderland we had rid ourselves of our useless American owner upon relegation.  Had we not I dare say it would have been a good comparison and we may well have dropped again.  As it is I don't think there is any likeness between Xia's Villa and Short's Sunderland.

[chrisw1]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

Weren't Cardiff in the relegation zone when Warnock took over?

They had finished 8th & 11th in the previous seasons. 

[chrisw1]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

We practically had to rebuild a new squad from scratch and at the same time completely change the culture from 6 years of failure.

It's clear you don't want to give Bruce credit and that's your prerogative.  But you're not comparing apples with apples.  Sunderland is a far better comparison.  Yes we spent a lot more than them - but we were in broadly the same starting position.

So Cardiff in 23rd and Derby in 20th were operating from a solid, stable base, whereas Villa in 19th, were in freefall?  Ok if you say so.  Cardiff's squad wasn't and still isn't anything special, and what Warnock has done with them, however ugly, is something special.  I don't happen to think what Bruce has done is anything that special given his resources.   The six years of failure had been under Lerner, not Xia and co. Unlike Sunderland we had rid ourselves of our useless American owner upon relegation.  Had we not I dare say it would have been a good comparison and we may well have dropped again.  As it is I don't think there is any likeness between Xia's Villa and Short's Sunderland.

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.  They may both been out of form but they were established mid table Championship teams - that was their solid base.

Derby finished
13-14 - 3rd
14-15 - 8th
15-16 - 5th


Cardiff finished
13-14 - relegated from prem
14-15 - 11th
15-16 - 8th

The point I am making is you keep going on about the money spent, but we had to pretty much rebuild the entire team.  The starting point of our squad was more akin to Sunderlands not Derby's or Cardiffs.

[paul_e]

It's just not comparable KT.  Cardiff and Derby were both building from a fairly solid stable base.  They were established Championship teams with a core squad of players.  They didn't need huge amounts spending on them, just good management and a bit of tweaking.

We practically had to rebuild a new squad from scratch and at the same time completely change the culture from 6 years of failure.

It's clear you don't want to give Bruce credit and that's your prerogative.  But you're not comparing apples with apples.  Sunderland is a far better comparison.  Yes we spent a lot more than them - but we were in broadly the same starting position.

So Cardiff in 23rd and Derby in 20th were operating from a solid, stable base, whereas Villa in 19th, were in freefall?  Ok if you say so.  Cardiff's squad wasn't and still isn't anything special, and what Warnock has done with them, however ugly, is something special.  I don't happen to think what Bruce has done is anything that special given his resources.   The six years of failure had been under Lerner, not Xia and co. Unlike Sunderland we had rid ourselves of our useless American owner upon relegation.  Had we not I dare say it would have been a good comparison and we may well have dropped again.  As it is I don't think there is any likeness between Xia's Villa and Short's Sunderland.

You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.  They may both been out of form but they were established mid table Championship teams - that was their solid base.

Derby finished
13-14 - 3rd
14-15 - 8th
15-16 - 5th


Cardiff finished
13-14 - relegated from prem
14-15 - 11th
15-16 - 8th

The point I am making is you keep going on about the money spent, but we had to pretty much rebuild the entire team.  The starting point of our squad was more akin to Sunderlands not Derby's or Cardiffs.

We did have to rebuild parts of the squad, that's true but you're massively overselling the amount of work needed when Bruce arrived.  We had some very good players in the squad that came down and much of the rebuilding job was already done by RDM in the summer, he just fucked up in centre midfield by only adding Jedi and Tish and letting Veretout, Sanchez and Gueye leave. He left us both light on numbers and very reliant on Westwood who was, in my opinion, mentally shot and not talented enough to make up for it.

Playing as we are now the team Bruce took over would've looked something like:

Gollini
Hutton, Chester, Baker, Amavi
Jedinak, Westwood
Adomah, Grealish, Ayew
Kodjia

That's not a terrible team that needs emergency rebuilding to avoid relegation from the championship.  It's a team that needs an experienced keeper and upgrade or 2 in midfield to be easily in the playoffs. That RDM was struggling to get some mental fortitude into the players (if you take the scores at 80minutes we'd have been on the edge of the playoffs, but once the nerves set in we kept falling apart) doesn't change that, it means that he wasn't the right man for the job.

Bruce has proven to be a better fit in that regard but the job he's done is still on a knife edge, if we win on Saturday then he's done the job we employed him for, if not he'll have failed twice.

[old man villa fan]

I think what RDM had done in those 11 matches with the help of Xia was to have bailed out enough water to stop the ship sinking. The thought was that he couldn't bail the rest of the water out fast enough by the end of the season to get us promoted.  I think at times it gets forgotten how many players he moved on and brought in in a short period of time and some missed half of his games in charge.

I think Bruce benefitted from the groundwork that RDM did, whereas RDM didn't.

[wittonwarrior]

I think RDM lost his head  at the end, however if McCormack  has scored at Sheff Wed, if we could have kept that lead when we were looking comfortable at Bristol City would have been a different story. 

Obviously the goalkeeper situation was a mistake on Matteo's  behalf which Bruce rectified, but you need to give Steve  Bruce some credit overall for putting a bit of Villa back into Aston Villa. More than a few mistakes made but our pride is back.

[john e]

I think what RDM had done in those 11 matches with the help of Xia was to have bailed out enough water to stop the ship sinking. The thought was that he couldn't bail the rest of the water out fast enough by the end of the season to get us promoted.  I think at times it gets forgotten how many players he moved on and brought in in a short period of time and some missed half of his games in charge.

I think Bruce benefitted from the groundwork that RDM did, whereas RDM didn't.

i don't think RDM had the passion or work ethic for the job, it was always beneath him and i felt he came over as a bit of a lazy mananger, his style of play and some of his buys were ok but for me his heart was never in it

i've never been a Bruce fan but he does do the groundwork at this level its not pretty but it can be effective

[Mister E]

I think what RDM had done in those 11 matches with the help of Xia was to have bailed out enough water to stop the ship sinking. The thought was that he couldn't bail the rest of the water out fast enough by the end of the season to get us promoted.  I think at times it gets forgotten how many players he moved on and brought in in a short period of time and some missed half of his games in charge.

I think Bruce benefitted from the groundwork that RDM did, whereas RDM didn't.

i don't think RDM had the passion or work ethic for the job, it was always beneath him and i felt he came over as a bit of a lazy mananger, his style of play and some of his buys were ok but for me his heart was never in it

i've never been a Bruce fan but he does do the groundwork at this level its not pretty but it can be effective

Isn’t that what Steve Clarke was supposed to be doing?He was the biggest disappointment, since he came to us with a great reputation for his coaching.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I think what RDM had done in those 11 matches with the help of Xia was to have bailed out enough water to stop the ship sinking. The thought was that he couldn't bail the rest of the water out fast enough by the end of the season to get us promoted.  I think at times it gets forgotten how many players he moved on and brought in in a short period of time and some missed half of his games in charge.

I think Bruce benefitted from the groundwork that RDM did, whereas RDM didn't.

i don't think RDM had the passion or work ethic for the job, it was always beneath him and i felt he came over as a bit of a lazy mananger, his style of play and some of his buys were ok but for me his heart was never in it

i've never been a Bruce fan but he does do the groundwork at this level its not pretty but it can be effective

Isn’t that what Steve Clarke was supposed to be doing?He was the biggest disappointment, since he came to us with a great reputation for his coaching.

I'd love to know the full story but I always had the impression something went very badly wrong very early on between RDM and Clarke.