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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 319011 times)

Online Dave

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1245 on: March 08, 2017, 10:13:10 PM »
What style of play do you feel is more likely to get us promoted over the style that worked with Hull?

A more attacking style.  His automatic promotion was achieved with 2 points above 3rd (not to say they wouldn't have been promoted through the play-offs) but they only scored 61 goals with a goal difference of only 9.  That is very close and possibly hinged on one result, although over 46 games you finish where you deserve to (so they say).

So he should change the style that works for him to something different just in case an occasional result goes a different way? I'm not sure that logic quite stacks up.

I'm hardly Bruce's biggest fan, but if he succeeds with us then it won't be because he decides he want to reinvent himself as the new Rinus Michels.

From one extreme to another that is so wide, I would accept a 10% shift towards total football would make a massive difference to our chances.  The big question is "if he succeeds with us".

I agree.

But "if he succeeds with us", then it will be because he's eventually managed to drill us into a team that will win more games 1-0 than it will lose 1-0.

Not because he suddenly decides he wants to change the way he's been managing for the last 15 years.

Offline brontebilly

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1246 on: March 08, 2017, 11:37:34 PM »
Bruce arguably had a more difficult job last season getting Hull back up. Livermore was on a coke ban, the fans were staying away in droves, the atmosphere between supporters and board was about 10 times worse than the end of Lerner's reign, he had very limited players like his son, Mr pub player, Meyler and a host of others. I don't recall him spending that much either. Yet he managed that situation brilliantly.

Maybe the summer might suit him as things went tits up for him at Sunderland when he was given the Bent money etc to spend. In hindsight what we did at the end of January was madness and Bruce lost his bearings for a few games after it with the crazy decision to go to three at the back.

This summer I presume we will have jack all to spend so transfer business you would hope is better planned. We need a better central defender than Baker or Elphick, new first choice keeper, cover/replacement for Jedinak. The loanees are not worth considering, the gruesome twosome should be paid off and Amavi can do one too.

Up front we are a mess but if top division offers come in for Kodjia we should consider them as I think he is a large part of the problem. McCormack is a goner so we should be able to get a couple of forwards in who are happy to rotate with Hogan. There will be a clamour to cash in on Grealish who has flopped badly this year but I'd be thinking we should try and hold on until his form improves at a minimum.

Offline TonyD

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1247 on: March 09, 2017, 12:19:54 AM »
Our Villa is broken.   He has a very hard job.   

Offline Ads

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1248 on: March 09, 2017, 07:06:12 AM »
That automatic promotion was with Small Heath. If I recall he took over part of the way through the season with them jobbing in mid table. That he took that shower on a run and got them up and kept them up for so long is a miracle.

Offline Rico

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1249 on: March 09, 2017, 07:32:07 AM »
Stating the obvious here, but its the attacking side of our game that needs addressing. Defensively we are up there with the play off teams. As others have stated before if we don't score first we lose. We need to shake off that frailty, and maybe Bruce needs to be more proactive with his substitutions when we do concede. We are not getting relegated this season, and we are not getting promoted so let's just go for it. Goals win games!

Offline Jimbo

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1250 on: March 09, 2017, 07:51:20 AM »
Bruce needs to get us going into games thinking 'we must win' rather than 'we should win'. There's a gulf of difference between the two.

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1251 on: March 09, 2017, 07:55:54 AM »
How often do we put pressure on the opposition in around their penalty area to create mistakes in their defence.  Compare that to what the opposition do to us.

Offline Ads

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1252 on: March 09, 2017, 08:16:49 AM »
We imposed ourself on Huddersfield especially in the first half. That's a big difference from being reactive.

It's a strong central midfield three. Couldn't help thinking if Green had been on then his pace and directness would have made a difference. He's very raw of course, so he's hit and miss, but I thought that alternative was lacking.

We're having a funny one missing some real sitters.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1253 on: March 09, 2017, 10:50:21 AM »
My concern with Bruce is whether he can change his style to get us into one of the two automatic promotion spots next year.  Going up via the play-offs is a lottery and we do not want to be in that position.

Bruce has been promoted four times, twice by finishing 2nd and twice via the play-offs.  His promotions with Blues were via the play-offs in 2001 and finishing 2nd in 2007, 16 years and 10 years ago respectively.  Hull has been more recent with automatic promotion in 2013 and via the play-offs last season.  I do wonder where the 'promotion specialist' tag comes from, bearing in mind what has happened to him between the successes at Blues and those at Hull.

Looking a bit deeper at his promotions, when he finished 2nd his teams scored 67 and 61 goals respectively and when he achieved promotion via the play-offs his teams scored 70 and 69 goals.  Of the 12 teams that have finished first or second over the last 6 years, only one team (other than his Hull side) has scored less than 67 goals, with the average being 77 goals.  From a points perspective, his automatic promotion with Blues was with 86 points and 79 points with Hull.  Other than when he was promoted with Hull, the lowest points for automatic promotion was 84, with the average being 89 (also the lowest in the last 3 years).  This season it looks as though the top two will finish with over 90 points and a minimum of around 80 goals.

From the above statistics, I do question whether Bruce can get us automatic promotion unless he changes his style of play.



In the last 15 years he's managed 4 seasons in the championship (1 not even a full season) and got 4 promotions from those years, I'm not sure how much more a promotion specialist you can get class from that!

This year will be the first time he's not been promoted from this level since 2001.

I'm not convinced the style of football will change that much next season and I'm not convinced it has to. Newcastle have hardly been spectacular with their play this season for all their talent but they can defend, soak up pressure and score at key moments as seen in our recent game, same with Huddersfield and Reading.

Sheff Weds have probably the best strikeforce in the division (Rhodes, Hooper, Fletcher, Winnall and Foresteri) and they are very low scorers this season.

Bump and grind is the way it is down here I think (oo er).

Where we have to be better next season is just not giving up as soon as we go 1 down. Look at Reading and Huddersfield and see how many points they've won from losing games in the last 30 minutes this season. We are pathetic in that regard.

Offline Drummond

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1254 on: March 09, 2017, 12:41:46 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.

Huddersfield have won the league three times more than us in the last 100 years, have only one FA Cup less than us in that time and one Charity Shield.

Offline Sexual Ealing

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1255 on: March 09, 2017, 12:52:30 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.

Huddersfield have won the league three times more than us in the last 100 years, have only one FA Cup less than us in that time and one Charity Shield.

Show me their Peace Cups though.

Offline adrenachrome

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1256 on: March 09, 2017, 12:55:03 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.

Huddersfield have won the league three times more than us in the last 100 years, have only one FA Cup less than us in that time and one Charity Shield.

I can remember playing them in the late 60's when the star player on the pitch by most peoples' reckoning was Frank Worthington. Barry Hole scored for us before he was up and down and in The Rose and Crown.

Offline mr underhill

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1257 on: March 09, 2017, 04:14:02 PM »
I'm nailing my colours to the mast - Bruce won't be here come June if he doesn't get us comfortably top half and over 60 points.

Offline Ian J

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1258 on: March 09, 2017, 06:28:26 PM »
Well SoccerHQ if we bump 'n' grind to victories next year that'll do me. I reckon our team spirit and togetherness is going to grow and grow and with that so will belief. From now through to August must be a period of stability. Changing Bruce now would be madness.

He came in and steadied a squad very randomly thrown together and since has made some really excellent purchases as well as a huge turn over of players in a very short space of time, hence the January and February wobble. Now it's time to give him time to make it happen and I believe it will.

Offline brian green

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1259 on: March 09, 2017, 07:51:27 PM »
I see nothing to make me change my mind that promotion will take 3 - 5 years.   We were such a sick club at the end of Lerner's tenure it was inevitable that the healing process would be a lengthy one.  The latest example of how unbelievably badly we were run is the discovery that Fox was paid 2.9 million a year.  I am amazed that we avoided bankruptcy.

Bruce will get us back but it will not be through the sunlit uplands of the Beautiful Game.  It will be via the landfill site, past the abbattoir and twice round the gasworks.