collapse

Please donate to help keep this site going.

* The Fanzine

Heroes & Villains Fanzine



Get your fix of all things Claret & Blue by subscribing to the online version!

Recent Posts

Re: The Cricket Thread 2017 by OzVilla
[Today at 04:34:28 AM]


Re: Bruce out? by jeowje
[Today at 04:06:23 AM]


Re: Bruce out? by Toronto Villa
[Today at 03:02:02 AM]


Re: The Much Awaited Return of Promotion Maths by ciggiesnbeer
[Today at 03:01:59 AM]


Re: Bruce out? by Ads
[Today at 02:48:03 AM]

Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 317879 times)

Offline kippaxvilla2

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11729
  • Location: Back in Solihull
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1230 on: March 08, 2017, 04:32:13 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Offline Clark W Griswold

  • first team
  • *
  • Posts: 2005
  • Location: Wallyworld
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1231 on: March 08, 2017, 04:41:05 PM »
It takes a while to gel a team with so many new players. We definitely have the talent for this level, as long as we work out a suitable game plan that everyone understands and we get the fitness up and the team spirit together we'll start to do well. Over to Steve Bruce for that, he needs the rest of the season and the summer to get it all together and then hopefully we can start quite well and build momentum next season.

Offline mr underhill

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 4986
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1232 on: March 08, 2017, 05:22:45 PM »
Sounds easy when you put it like that

Offline paul_e

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 14776
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Back from the frozen North
  • GM : July, 2013
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1233 on: March 08, 2017, 06:04:09 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.

Offline Rigadon

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 3859
  • GM : Aug, 2014
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1234 on: March 08, 2017, 07:18:26 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.


I get where you're coming from - lowering expectations is galling for fans.  I don't think Bruce has done too much of that I might add - certainly other managers since MON have done much more (thinking DOL and Houllier in particular).  But I honestly think last years team would be in the 3 of this league and comfortably heading for relegation.  That team was rotten and needed completely replacing.  I think what were seeing now is the slow but steady turn around.  The football is mostly absolute shite to watch of course. 


Edit - before and after MON in fact!

Offline kippaxvilla2

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11729
  • Location: Back in Solihull
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1235 on: March 08, 2017, 07:46:49 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.

And Van Gaal spent 250m plus at Manure and couldn't get them in the Champions League.  Money guarantees nothing.  You can't win this league simply by blowing teams away with 'we're Aston Villa' sound bites and silky football every week.  Newcastle went to Wolves played rubbish and ground out a 1-0.  We are just taking a bit more time to get to that stage.  But I think we will.

Offline Mister E

  • coach
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9823
  • Location: Mostly the Republic of Yorkshire (N)
  • GM : 21.02.2017
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1236 on: March 08, 2017, 08:37:22 PM »
Whether we like it or not, we are where we are and what we are currently.  A mid table average championship club who had up until a week or so ago lost five games in a row.  Believe it or not Newcastle adopted the same tactics against Huddersfield on Saturday and got away with a soft penalty and an arguable foul on their keeper from a punt upfield.  I don't blame him for starting with solidity and actually this tactic has started to work in recent weeks as teams have been worn down in the 2nd half by us.  Given a close season I firmly believe we will challenge next season.  Huddersfield are one of the best sides I have seen all season (the way they attacked Leeds the other week was great) and last night they were poor by comparison.  We take a bit of comfort from that.

Where we are is one thing, what we are is why people are upset, we're a team that's spent a fortune and is playing a level below where we've been for 30 years playing like we're scared to lose away to teams who have been at this level or below for almost their entire existence  and being told to suck it up because that's what we need to do is galling for me and I'm sure for plenty of other people.  That's no disrespect to teams like Huddersfield but we've spent a fortune and I reckon we're no better off than we'd be if we'd just played last years team and the kids.

And Van Gaal spent 250m plus at Manure and couldn't get them in the Champions League.  Money guarantees nothing.  You can't win this league simply by blowing teams away with 'we're Aston Villa' sound bites and silky football every week.  Newcastle went to Wolves played rubbish and ground out a 1-0.  We are just taking a bit more time to get to that stage.  But I think we will.
kippax: reality bites, and I agree with your attitude. We are where we are because of years of entropy at the club. When RL claimed mere 'stewardship' he created a useful soundbite but failed to live up to the heavy responsibility that comes with curator-ship.
So, like 1970-2, we have to adapt to our new status and grind out the results that give us the return we crave. Trying to do what we used to do probably won't give us salvation.

Offline old man villa fan

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 2883
  • Location: Birmingham
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1237 on: March 08, 2017, 09:13:13 PM »
My concern with Bruce is whether he can change his style to get us into one of the two automatic promotion spots next year.  Going up via the play-offs is a lottery and we do not want to be in that position.

Bruce has been promoted four times, twice by finishing 2nd and twice via the play-offs.  His promotions with Blues were via the play-offs in 2001 and finishing 2nd in 2007, 16 years and 10 years ago respectively.  Hull has been more recent with automatic promotion in 2013 and via the play-offs last season.  I do wonder where the 'promotion specialist' tag comes from, bearing in mind what has happened to him between the successes at Blues and those at Hull.

Looking a bit deeper at his promotions, when he finished 2nd his teams scored 67 and 61 goals respectively and when he achieved promotion via the play-offs his teams scored 70 and 69 goals.  Of the 12 teams that have finished first or second over the last 6 years, only one team (other than his Hull side) has scored less than 67 goals, with the average being 77 goals.  From a points perspective, his automatic promotion with Blues was with 86 points and 79 points with Hull.  Other than when he was promoted with Hull, the lowest points for automatic promotion was 84, with the average being 89 (also the lowest in the last 3 years).  This season it looks as though the top two will finish with over 90 points and a minimum of around 80 goals.

From the above statistics, I do question whether Bruce can get us automatic promotion unless he changes his style of play.


Offline Dave

  • Moderator
  • prolific poster
  • *
  • Posts: 29685
  • Location: Bath
  • GM : 04.11.2015
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1238 on: March 08, 2017, 09:15:05 PM »
What style of play do you feel is more likely to get us promoted over the style that worked with Hull?

Offline PeterWithesShin

  • Moderator
  • prolific poster
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 45891
  • Location: B16
  • GM : 17.03.2015
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1239 on: March 08, 2017, 09:23:30 PM »
Bit hard for him to win promotion between the sha and Hull jobs as he was managing in the top flight.

Offline adrenachrome

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11595
  • Location: The Foundry
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1240 on: March 08, 2017, 09:26:37 PM »
Why do people feel the need to let us know they want to be 'banned', why don't they just stop posting?

I'm not going to be posting for a while, going to do some 'work' so bollocks to you all, especially Clampy.

Don't forget that County Championship cricket starts in a month's time.

Offline old man villa fan

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 2883
  • Location: Birmingham
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1241 on: March 08, 2017, 09:31:14 PM »
What style of play do you feel is more likely to get us promoted over the style that worked with Hull?

A more attacking style.  His automatic promotion was achieved with 2 points above 3rd (not to say they wouldn't have been promoted through the play-offs) but they only scored 61 goals with a goal difference of only 9.  That is very close and possibly hinged on one result, although over 46 games you finish where you deserve to (so they say).

Offline old man villa fan

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 2883
  • Location: Birmingham
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1242 on: March 08, 2017, 09:43:49 PM »
Bit hard for him to win promotion between the sha and Hull jobs as he was managing in the top flight.

I meant it as it being a long time between the two jobs and not a lot happening other than controversy over money for him or transfers which seems a recurring theme during his career.  But you are quite right in what you say.

Offline Dave

  • Moderator
  • prolific poster
  • *
  • Posts: 29685
  • Location: Bath
  • GM : 04.11.2015
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1243 on: March 08, 2017, 09:44:38 PM »
What style of play do you feel is more likely to get us promoted over the style that worked with Hull?

A more attacking style.  His automatic promotion was achieved with 2 points above 3rd (not to say they wouldn't have been promoted through the play-offs) but they only scored 61 goals with a goal difference of only 9.  That is very close and possibly hinged on one result, although over 46 games you finish where you deserve to (so they say).

So he should change the style that works for him to something different just in case an occasional result goes a different way? I'm not sure that logic quite stacks up.

I'm hardly Bruce's biggest fan, but if he succeeds with us then it won't be because he decides he want to reinvent himself as the new Rinus Michels.

Offline old man villa fan

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 2883
  • Location: Birmingham
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1244 on: March 08, 2017, 09:51:42 PM »
What style of play do you feel is more likely to get us promoted over the style that worked with Hull?

A more attacking style.  His automatic promotion was achieved with 2 points above 3rd (not to say they wouldn't have been promoted through the play-offs) but they only scored 61 goals with a goal difference of only 9.  That is very close and possibly hinged on one result, although over 46 games you finish where you deserve to (so they say).

So he should change the style that works for him to something different just in case an occasional result goes a different way? I'm not sure that logic quite stacks up.

I'm hardly Bruce's biggest fan, but if he succeeds with us then it won't be because he decides he want to reinvent himself as the new Rinus Michels.

From one extreme to another that is so wide, I would accept a 10% shift towards total football would make a massive difference to our chances.  The big question is "if he succeeds with us".