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Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 320483 times)

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1110 on: March 06, 2017, 02:17:09 PM »
I haven't seen us play any hoof ball under Bruce at all.
What?

I heard it.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1111 on: March 06, 2017, 02:28:04 PM »
I haven't seen us play any hoof ball under Bruce at all.
What?

Ok, I haven't seen us play 'much' hoof ball under Bruce.

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1112 on: March 06, 2017, 02:29:54 PM »
When we do try to pass the ball all too often we're doing it in the wrong areas and at a very 'easy' tempo.

I firmly believe that the style bruce likes to use is focus on defensive shape and keeping things tight for 60-70 minutes and then having short spells where the team are free to attack.  We start ok, have 10-15 minutes and then we go defensive, and then we have a spell after about an hour where we play for 10-15 minutes.  Those are the only periods where we actually try to win the game.  I understand it, it's a 'earn the right to play' approach, but it does mean there will be plenty of times where we pick the ball up near our own box and have no option but to lump it forward and hope the striker can either hold onto it for a bit or score a solo effort. The problems I have with it are that if we concede he doesn't seem to have another plan and it seems unsuited to a team that expects to win more often than not.

Despite how it may come across I don't want us to play tiki-taka I think that only works if you have 2-3 game changers (such as messi, neymar and suarez) who only need half a yard of space to make something happen.  When I talk about Barcelona I spend far more time praising the way they defend than I do talking about their attacking and passing.  What I want to see us do is be able to adapt to what's in front of us.  I want everyone to be confident they can trap a ball and receive a pass with a man at their back.  I want us to have movement off the ball that opens gaps and players willing to play high risk/high reward passes when those gaps appear to try to make things happen.

What I don't want is a team that's scared to have the ball and that's what I think we are right now.  I'm more than happy to be proven wrong but I just don't see Bruce or this coaching team as being willing or able to fix that.

Offline chrisw1

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1113 on: March 06, 2017, 02:32:58 PM »
It baffles me that a lot of people still want Bruce out!?

it baffles me how anyone can think he should stay

since he's been here we are further away from even a play off place than we are a relegation spot
we have played the worst sort of crap hoof ball known to man even when we have won
every game follows the same formula of eye bleeding hellish style play and hope one of the expensive forwards can nick one in

its utter crap, we are 13th in a shit league playing rubbish football with absolutely no pressure as Bruce has managed to write of the complete rest of the season to nothing more than friendlies

and you think on what you have seen so far he's the man to stick with as somehow he's going to grind out enough wins next season to go up, that's what baffles me
It's a pretty simple concept John.  A lot of people simply think that given time Bruce offers the best possible chance of promotion next year. Given he's done it a few times before It's hard to understand how that theory baffles you.

Of course there may be more attractive options out there, but they all inevitably come with risk and there is a real fear that if we switch horses yet again, it could be another two steps back to go one forward.

Personally if we don't keep improving between now and the end of the season I would get shot.  But the fact that some people want to stick with most experienced Championship promotion expert hardly baffles me.

Offline oldhill_avfc

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1114 on: March 06, 2017, 02:45:13 PM »
Jedinak, Lansbury and Hourahane are definately the 3 for centre mid. For next season I'd have Bjanason and ideally Veretout but failing that Tshibola as back up for Hourahane and Lansbury but we need a proper stand in for Jedinak, and will have to buy one.
The front 3 are looking like Green, Kodjia and Adomah, they are quick, a handful for defenders and fit into those roles the best. Unfortunately Hogan is probably going to struggle to play if we play that way which really begs the question of why Bruce signed him and not a proper wide player if he knew that was his likely formation. As it stands he'd be back up with Grealish and Bacuna, but we could still do with signing a more natural quick wide player to compete.
Defense just needs a good centre back to compete with the first choice pair with Elphick as 4th choice. Maybe that will be Samba, if not we need to sign one.
And we need to spend the big money on a goalkeeper, as this was the other baffling January deal and it needs sorting out once and for all in the summer.

Some of what you say is on the money.

It's obvious decent goalie is a must and Elphick needs replacing. 

In terms of the attack, if our first choice is the three you mention we won't get promoted.  Green may well develop, but Kodija can't lead the line and hold the ball up away from home and Adomah is variable to say the least.

I know this is simplistic but to get promoted you have to score around 70 goals.  Let's say Kodija gets 20, Green and Adomah are unlikely to get more than 10 combined, so that's 40 from the rest.  Doesn't add up to me. 

In terms of the rest of the season Bruce has to sort the attack or at least been seen to try and address obvious weaknesses. 

If he goes 4-4-2 then Jedinak probably has to go favour of someone who play either wide left or wide right midfield (allowing him Green or Grealish or Admonah to play a wide/free role). 

If he goes 4-3-3 then I can't see how Hogan fits and Adomah has to go. 


Online john e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1115 on: March 06, 2017, 02:51:46 PM »
I haven't seen us play any hoof ball under Bruce at all. Whilst it's not always been great, to call it the 'worst sort of crap hoof ball known to man' is the biggest exaggeration I've read on here in a long time.


I think what Bruce has served up so far has been utter tripe,
 some of the worst football I've ever seen in the last 40 years of watching Villa, bearing in mind that we are not playing top quality opposition we are up against Burton, Rotherham and Barnsley etc

if your happy with it that's fine, my post would be a exaggeration in that case
we obviously have very different views on football and how we enjoy seeing it played

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1116 on: March 06, 2017, 03:04:24 PM »
On the 'it baffles me' theme, there are 2 things that genuinely baffle me.  Firstly, for almost as long as i can remember the defining style has been play for clean sheets and try to score on the counter and yet we need to stick with Bruce playing exactly that because "we've tried everything else" when in truth we've spent about 100 games in the last 20 odd years (since BFR) playing anything other than this style.  Secondly it baffles me that some people seem to see no middle ground arsenal and wimbledon in terms of style and if you express any desire to see an improvement in quality you get labelled as wanting tippy-tappy football as if that's a really thing.

Online Clampy

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1117 on: March 06, 2017, 03:06:49 PM »
I haven't seen us play any hoof ball under Bruce at all. Whilst it's not always been great, to call it the 'worst sort of crap hoof ball known to man' is the biggest exaggeration I've read on here in a long time.


I think what Bruce has served up so far has been utter tripe,
 some of the worst football I've ever seen in the last 40 years of watching Villa, bearing in mind that we are not playing top quality opposition we are up against Burton, Rotherham and Barnsley etc

if your happy with it that's fine, my post would be a exaggeration in that case
we obviously have very different views on football and how we enjoy seeing it played

I'm not sure where I've said I've enjoyed the football or I'm happy with the way we've played. I just said that I don't think we play 'the worst kind of crap hoof ball known to man' as you put it. That's where our views differ.

Some games I've come away thinking how bloody crap it was, other games I think we've been ok and I've seen us play well, but that's not been as often as i'd like. I've seen us play a lot worse than we have this season.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 03:11:05 PM by Clampy »

Offline mattjpa

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1118 on: March 06, 2017, 03:27:36 PM »
There will be Chelsea and Newcastle fans moaning on boards that they are not happy with the style of football being played. United have won a cup already, it will be the same over there. West Brom are having their most successful season ever and I have no doubt there will be some saying the same thing over there and dont get me started on the West Ham Way. At the opposite end of the scale there will be Arsenal fans complaining their football is too nice and they need to win ugly- that the result is more important than the method.

Ultimately, we have a new squad at a club that has been through the wringer and been beaten down for a good few years. We are everyones favourite scalp at the moment and I have no doubt whatsoever that teams raise their game higher against us than Reading, Huddersfield, QPR etc. We dont need pretty football at the moment, we need wins but it is nowhere near as bad as John sees it in my opinion. I have complete faith Bruce will take us up next season and have seen enough to believe we have the talent to develop the football at the same time

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1119 on: March 06, 2017, 03:31:29 PM »
I think part of the problem is that we've been spoilt rotten with the standard of football we've seen in recent seasons, whoever was appointed manager was always going to have a lot to live up to. I think we should stick with him, despite the fact he's had 5 months to sort things out.

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1120 on: March 06, 2017, 03:32:44 PM »
Movement of the ball requires a few things - someone who can move into space to receive the ball, and we need someone who can pass the ball further than 2 yards ( I don't see many of those type of footballers down the Villa, or if in truth in the Chumpionship!)

Lets be honest the football is dreadful even the team that are starting to move away at the top of the table are not very good.

Not sure we will be able to play that way with Jedinak in the DM role.  To play that kind of game, we need someone in that role who can get on the ball and pick out passes. Jedinak has other strengths, but that is not one of them. 
Jedinak is getting a bum rap on here at the moment. His has good passing abilities - I think - but is involved in a scrap most of the time meaning that time on the ball is a nanosecond in this league.

Not giving him a bad rap as he does have certain strengths which are more than handy in this league.  I was just saying that I don't think we will be able to play a passing game through him, as being on the ball and dictating play isn't his game.  He's more of a 'destroyer' type in there who keeps it simple.

Offline Ads

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1121 on: March 06, 2017, 03:38:23 PM »
I don't think we play long ball, as that implies a deliberate tactic. My biggest criticism would be that until that first goal goes in or after a bright start, we look devoid of a method of attack, long ball or otherwise.

Offline KevinGage

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1122 on: March 06, 2017, 03:54:40 PM »
When we do try to pass the ball all too often we're doing it in the wrong areas and at a very 'easy' tempo.

I firmly believe that the style bruce likes to use is focus on defensive shape and keeping things tight for 60-70 minutes and then having short spells where the team are free to attack.  We start ok, have 10-15 minutes and then we go defensive, and then we have a spell after about an hour where we play for 10-15 minutes.  Those are the only periods where we actually try to win the game.  I understand it, it's a 'earn the right to play' approach, but it does mean there will be plenty of times where we pick the ball up near our own box and have no option but to lump it forward and hope the striker can either hold onto it for a bit or score a solo effort. The problems I have with it are that if we concede he doesn't seem to have another plan and it seems unsuited to a team that expects to win more often than not.

Despite how it may come across I don't want us to play tiki-taka I think that only works if you have 2-3 game changers (such as messi, neymar and suarez) who only need half a yard of space to make something happen.  When I talk about Barcelona I spend far more time praising the way they defend than I do talking about their attacking and passing.  What I want to see us do is be able to adapt to what's in front of us.  I want everyone to be confident they can trap a ball and receive a pass with a man at their back.  I want us to have movement off the ball that opens gaps and players willing to play high risk/high reward passes when those gaps appear to try to make things happen.

What I don't want is a team that's scared to have the ball and that's what I think we are right now.  I'm more than happy to be proven wrong but I just don't see Bruce or this coaching team as being willing or able to fix that.

Some of the stuff Southampton played under Koeman looked like a decent mix of possession football and the more traditional approach.  Looked like the type of thing easier to replicate than Barca or Tony Mowbray's tiki taka.

Pochettino before him had obviously placed the emphasis purely on movement and possession football. Which looks great when everyone is on song and you can wear the opposition down with your tempo and probe for openings.  But under Koeman they weren't afraid to get the ball out wide to Tadic and look for Pele in the box.  The key was that wan't their only method of attack.



Online john e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1123 on: March 06, 2017, 04:13:14 PM »
I think part of the problem is that we've been spoilt rotten with the standard of football we've seen in recent seasons, whoever was appointed manager was always going to have a lot to live up to. I think we should stick with him, despite the fact he's had 5 months to sort things out.

the bar is set very low

but we don't have to keep lowering it

Online paul_e

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Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1124 on: March 06, 2017, 04:18:43 PM »
I don't think we play long ball, as that implies a deliberate tactic. My biggest criticism would be that until that first goal goes in or after a bright start, we look devoid of a method of attack, long ball or otherwise.

We play long ball by default because we don't have much of a plan and our players aren't comfortable receiving the ball in tight spaces so we drift backwards until the inevitable hoof up field which we don't have the players to utilise so we lose possession and the cycle starts again.  That's why I think it's a coaching issue, In my opinion we need to get the players willing to play in the opposition half and not always playing it safe.  I don't believe, from what I've seen, that Bruce agrees with that even though he's signed players like Hourihane and Hogan who would benefit from it.