collapse

Please donate to help keep this site going.

* The Fanzine

Heroes & Villains Fanzine



Get your fix of all things Claret & Blue by subscribing to the online version!

Recent Posts

Author Topic: Bruce out?  (Read 324921 times)

Online Clampy

  • prolific poster
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 20157
  • Location: warley
  • GM : PCM
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1020 on: March 02, 2017, 02:03:37 PM »
I think Ian was just suggesting that he'd like to see him have a pre-season. Obviously though, a decent end to this season would help with confidence more than anything.
Yes that's exactly what I meant. I think Bruce should have time with this current crop of players, now that half of the team are players he wanted.
To make the amount of changes we did during the January window was unusual and we certainly needed it, but now he needs time to get this squad working together and playing well. That include the remainder of this season and pre-season too.

Couldn't agree more personally.

Online paul_e

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 14810
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Back from the frozen North
  • GM : July, 2013
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1021 on: March 02, 2017, 02:27:03 PM »
I think Ian was just suggesting that he'd like to see him have a pre-season. Obviously though, a decent end to this season would help with confidence more than anything.
Yes that's exactly what I meant. I think Bruce should have time with this current crop of players, now that half of the team are players he wanted.
To make the amount of changes we did during the January window was unusual and we certainly needed it, but now he needs time to get this squad working together and playing well. That include the remainder of this season and pre-season too.

Couldn't agree more personally.

But in this scenario when do we judge him?  If the end of this season is more of the same of what we've seen so far how far into next season can we risk giving him to solve it?

Online old man villa fan

  • international
  • *
  • Posts: 2883
  • Location: Birmingham
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1022 on: March 02, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »
I think Ian was just suggesting that he'd like to see him have a pre-season. Obviously though, a decent end to this season would help with confidence more than anything.
Yes that's exactly what I meant. I think Bruce should have time with this current crop of players, now that half of the team are players he wanted.
To make the amount of changes we did during the January window was unusual and we certainly needed it, but now he needs time to get this squad working together and playing well. That include the remainder of this season and pre-season too.

Couldn't agree more personally.

But in this scenario when do we judge him?  If the end of this season is more of the same of what we've seen so far how far into next season can we risk giving him to solve it?

We can't afford to.  If he is not showing anything by the end of the season, I don't believe he will be the man to take us forward.  He is supposed to be the experienced promotion specialist and most of what he inherited here, he has seen before at other clubs.

At some point, managers lose their effectiveness for one reason or another.  Other than Blues, he has not been a long term manager at any club (allowing for the shorter timescales these days).  There are no guarantees in football but we have to look to be one of the favourites for one of the top two positions based on form, not on having a bunch of good players.  Bruce has to show a lot before the end of the season to convince me.

Online Drummond

  • player manager
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 14634
  • Age: 46
  • GM : 16.10.2017
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1023 on: March 02, 2017, 02:51:01 PM »
Omn reflection, I think what we've been going through over the past few weeks is our 'pre-season' in the sense that it's about formations, new players, sorting us out etc.

If we had gone up this year, we'd almost certainly been straight back down. We should absolutely be pushing for automatic promotion and winning the division next year, without a doubt. We've changed so much though, that expecting it so early was always a bit optimistic!

Online Clampy

  • prolific poster
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 20157
  • Location: warley
  • GM : PCM
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1024 on: March 02, 2017, 02:59:46 PM »
Omn reflection, I think what we've been going through over the past few weeks is our 'pre-season' in the sense that it's about formations, new players, sorting us out etc.

If we had gone up this year, we'd almost certainly been straight back down. We should absolutely be pushing for automatic promotion and winning the division next year, without a doubt. We've changed so much though, that expecting it so early was always a bit optimistic!

Going into the season, I thought we'd make the play off's and although I don't think that was overly optimistic, you have a point bearing in mind the amount of changes we've made.

Offline supertom

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 18136
  • Location: High Wycombe, just left of Paradise.
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1025 on: March 02, 2017, 03:00:15 PM »
He's got until May. If he wins more than he loses and shows that there is progression in the way we want to play, then he keeps his job. If it looks like we've not really progressed in any way, then Tony will have to consider Bruces position at the end.
This is a results business. Two games in a row Bruce has got results. Perhaps there are signs that defensively we look better. More organised again. Win, as you would expect against Rotherham, and that puts us in a decent run going into more difficult fixtures. In some regards the last two and following game have been a godsend for Brucie because Derby were in poor form, the Tits and the Chuckle Brothers United are both fighting relegation. Not winning those would have been him done with.

I'm not entirely fussed on style because we've fannied around in attempts at trying that and been battered senseless for 6 years. Winning is what matters. Yes, if you have cohesion and a working game plan then obviously winning becomes more likely, but Bruce's thing has always been grafting and grinding results. He's began by doing that for us, and he's now doing it again (touch wood). An apt comparison, hopefully, is O Neills first season. Great start. Unbeaten for 10 odd games I think. Then a horrid run where we looked like we may potentially slip back into a dogfight like we were in when Dolly left. But we then finished that season strongly, ended in mid-table and used it as a launch pad, and indeed that January also saw the beginnings of O Neill's own side, and the wave goodbye to O Leary's.

On paper it's a nothing season now. But the reality is, it's vitally important to build for next year and build a decent side.

Offline Keeno

  • youth team
  • *
  • Posts: 443
  • Location: Staffordshire
    • Twitter
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1026 on: March 02, 2017, 03:52:57 PM »
He's got until May. If he wins more than he loses and shows that there is progression in the way we want to play, then he keeps his job. If it looks like we've not really progressed in any way, then Tony will have to consider Bruces position at the end.
This is a results business. Two games in a row Bruce has got results. Perhaps there are signs that defensively we look better. More organised again. Win, as you would expect against Rotherham, and that puts us in a decent run going into more difficult fixtures. In some regards the last two and following game have been a godsend for Brucie because Derby were in poor form, the Tits and the Chuckle Brothers United are both fighting relegation. Not winning those would have been him done with.

I'm not entirely fussed on style because we've fannied around in attempts at trying that and been battered senseless for 6 years. Winning is what matters. Yes, if you have cohesion and a working game plan then obviously winning becomes more likely, but Bruce's thing has always been grafting and grinding results. He's began by doing that for us, and he's now doing it again (touch wood). An apt comparison, hopefully, is O Neills first season. Great start. Unbeaten for 10 odd games I think. Then a horrid run where we looked like we may potentially slip back into a dogfight like we were in when Dolly left. But we then finished that season strongly, ended in mid-table and used it as a launch pad, and indeed that January also saw the beginnings of O Neill's own side, and the wave goodbye to O Leary's.

On paper it's a nothing season now. But the reality is, it's vitally important to build for next year and build a decent side.

Agree with this, word for word.

Offline boozey182

  • trialist
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Location: Birmingham
  • GM : 29.02.2016
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1027 on: March 02, 2017, 09:44:46 PM »
Supertom makes some good points. It would be interesting to know what everyone expects from Bruce for the next few months. I think the majority of people say that we should get to the end of the season (assuming relegation is no longer an issue) and assess the situation then. So what would people want to see between now and May to convince them that Bruce is the man for the job?  Is it a case of results? A win percentage?

Personally, for him to get the job for next season I'd like to see between now and May:

Absolute must: Win at a rate that would see us in the playoffs over the course of a season, which works out at about 20pts for the rest of the season. No excuses about gelling now, this is his squad as much as it was RDM's when he got sacked.

Would need to see signs of: Start controlling games for longer periods. Winning like we did on Saturday isn't sustainable over a whole season.

Would like: Showing faith in some of our youth players. Green is starting to show the benefits of that policy, with hopefully RHM ready to follow suit.

If he can do all three of those he's got the job. Just the top one and it might be worth seeing who else is available, but it's a solid basis to work from. Without the top one and I don't think he's the man for us.

Offline LeeB

  • player manager
  • *
  • Posts: 14428
  • Location: Standing in the Klix-O-Gum queue.
  • GM : May, 2014
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1028 on: March 02, 2017, 10:07:18 PM »
It is true that other teams don't have the financial advantages that we have. However, I remember before Blackburn won the top division people used to say you can't buy the league. Weirdly, I am starting to think that this remains true of this division.

What wins in this division is a well organised set of (often average) players with great team spirit. Buying a new set of stars every 4-6 months isn't going to do it.

I want to see us getting better results and looking more organised as the season goes on. It doesn't have to be spectacular, just an improvement, of the kind we were seeing when he first arrived. Scrapping results, sometimes looking good, looking good more frequently, for longer, just sometimes winning AND looking like we meant it. Just that is enough for me to feel he should stay. The rest can, and I think will, come later if we hold our nerve.

Of course - if we carry on having the kind of poor points return and disjointed football that we saw from Christmas to Mid February (I'd argue that although the first win was Derby, we had stated to look better, e.g. Creating a lot of chances, sooner than that) - then I'd say that we should part ways and give someone else the pre-season, but without much of budget - we need to start to build a team, not keep getting new 'names' in. It's the worst kind of 'moneyball' to buy a load of players who've done well elsewhere without building a team OR making money on them!



I think that's where I am with it all. Well said.

Offline pauliewalnuts

  • Moderator
  • prolific poster
  • *
  • Posts: 57281
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1029 on: March 02, 2017, 10:08:27 PM »
I think I'd just give him next season, regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I am as annoyed as anyone at the results since he has been here - they haven't been good enough - but I am so tired of the manager change thing, that I just can't whip up the enthusiasm for binning him.

He could make a pretty convincing argument that he deserves a full season to be judged.

Online Dave

  • Moderator
  • prolific poster
  • *
  • Posts: 29708
  • Location: Bath
  • GM : 04.11.2015
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1030 on: March 02, 2017, 10:11:08 PM »
I think I'd just give him next season, regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I am as annoyed as anyone at the results since he has been here - they haven't been good enough - but I am so tired of the manager change thing, that I just can't whip up the enthusiasm for binning him.

He could make a pretty convincing argument that he deserves a full season to be judged.

As could the man he replaced.

Online Chris Smith

  • prolific poster
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 31584
  • Location: Blissful ignorance
  • GM : 18.07.2017
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1031 on: March 02, 2017, 10:44:45 PM »
I think I'd just give him next season, regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I am as annoyed as anyone at the results since he has been here - they haven't been good enough - but I am so tired of the manager change thing, that I just can't whip up the enthusiasm for binning him.

He could make a pretty convincing argument that he deserves a full season to be judged.

As could the man he replaced.

Isn't that pretty irrelevant now? In any case if you the think he was sacked too hastily surely you should be against the same thing happening again.

Online john e

  • player manager
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 12966
  • GM : 01.08.2016
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1032 on: March 03, 2017, 10:08:44 AM »
I think I'd just give him next season, regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I am as annoyed as anyone at the results since he has been here - they haven't been good enough - but I am so tired of the manager change thing, that I just can't whip up the enthusiasm for binning him.

He could make a pretty convincing argument that he deserves a full season to be judged.

As could the man he replaced.

Isn't that pretty irrelevant now? In any case if you the think he was sacked too hastily surely you should be against the same thing happening again.

no, they were/are both not good enough,


that's the bottom line, we cant be putting up with managers who will just get us further entrenched as a average championship club just because we cant be bothered with the hassle to change again

Online Dave

  • Moderator
  • prolific poster
  • *
  • Posts: 29708
  • Location: Bath
  • GM : 04.11.2015
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1033 on: March 03, 2017, 10:13:01 AM »
I think I'd just give him next season, regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I am as annoyed as anyone at the results since he has been here - they haven't been good enough - but I am so tired of the manager change thing, that I just can't whip up the enthusiasm for binning him.

He could make a pretty convincing argument that he deserves a full season to be judged.

As could the man he replaced.

Isn't that pretty irrelevant now? In any case if you the think he was sacked too hastily surely you should be against the same thing happening again.

I wasn't against Di Matteo being potted, and unless there are improvements in our performances between now and May then I still won't be against the same happening to Bruce.

Online chrisw1

  • first team
  • *
  • Posts: 1587
Re: Bruce out
« Reply #1034 on: March 03, 2017, 10:16:00 AM »
He's got until May. If he wins more than he loses and shows that there is progression in the way we want to play, then he keeps his job. If it looks like we've not really progressed in any way, then Tony will have to consider Bruces position at the end.
This is a results business. Two games in a row Bruce has got results. Perhaps there are signs that defensively we look better. More organised again. Win, as you would expect against Rotherham, and that puts us in a decent run going into more difficult fixtures. In some regards the last two and following game have been a godsend for Brucie because Derby were in poor form, the Tits and the Chuckle Brothers United are both fighting relegation. Not winning those would have been him done with.

I'm not entirely fussed on style because we've fannied around in attempts at trying that and been battered senseless for 6 years. Winning is what matters. Yes, if you have cohesion and a working game plan then obviously winning becomes more likely, but Bruce's thing has always been grafting and grinding results. He's began by doing that for us, and he's now doing it again (touch wood). An apt comparison, hopefully, is O Neills first season. Great start. Unbeaten for 10 odd games I think. Then a horrid run where we looked like we may potentially slip back into a dogfight like we were in when Dolly left. But we then finished that season strongly, ended in mid-table and used it as a launch pad, and indeed that January also saw the beginnings of O Neill's own side, and the wave goodbye to O Leary's.

On paper it's a nothing season now. But the reality is, it's vitally important to build for next year and build a decent side.

Agree with this, word for word.
Yep.  A decent end to the season and he stays.  If not then we need to reconsider.