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Author Topic: The Cricket Thread 2017  (Read 102026 times)

Offline peter w

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2017, 10:11:49 AM »
Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.

Openng batsmen don't last as captain for all that long because combining the 2 jobs is mentally exhausting and Cook looked like he needed a break in the India tour.

Alastair Cook 59 matches as captain
Andrew Strauss 50 matches as captain
Michael Atherton 54 matches as cpatain
Graham Gooch 34 matches as captain

All openers and 4 of England's top 6 longest serving captain's.

Indeed, and now look at their batting averages from before they got the role and series on series as captain, they all have a clear downward trajectory.

Gooch went massively the other way from memory.

Online paul_e

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #121 on: February 07, 2017, 01:21:06 PM »
Gooch had that great home series against India which made him but in the ashes series where he retired he looked utterly broken (him looking lost in that series is one of the most enduring memories I have of watching cricket as a teenager) but then came back and put in a few really good batting performances before he retired.

I think being a good captain without it affecting your own game requires a very specific mindset, partially that's about underlying personality but form/frame of mind/desire all play a part and those things change over time.  There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).  Cook has never been a great game manager anyway and in the last 2-3 series his flaws have been quite stark, that's why I firmly believe it's the right decision and I said as much towards the end of the test series.  Good guy and great batsman but not the right captain for us any more.

Offline ACVilla

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #122 on: February 07, 2017, 03:18:45 PM »
There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).
Nothing to do with captaincy, there are very, very few sportsmen and women in the world who bow out on top, captain or just in the ranks.

Online paul_e

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2017, 04:11:42 PM »
There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).
Nothing to do with captaincy, there are very, very few sportsmen and women in the world who bow out on top, captain or just in the ranks.

yes, but even if their own game is fine a captain can hit a wall, as I think Cook has done, that's the point I was trying to make (but made a bit of a mess of).

Offline UK Redsox

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #124 on: February 08, 2017, 07:52:21 AM »
There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).
Nothing to do with captaincy, there are very, very few sportsmen and women in the world who bow out on top, captain or just in the ranks.

Elway & Manning in the NFL and Rosberg in F1 are recent ones that I can think of but, in general, you're correct

Offline peter w

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #125 on: February 08, 2017, 08:36:04 AM »
Gooch had that great home series against India which made him but in the ashes series where he retired he looked utterly broken (him looking lost in that series is one of the most enduring memories I have of watching cricket as a teenager) but then came back and put in a few really good batting performances before he retired.

I think being a good captain without it affecting your own game requires a very specific mindset, partially that's about underlying personality but form/frame of mind/desire all play a part and those things change over time.  There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).  Cook has never been a great game manager anyway and in the last 2-3 series his flaws have been quite stark, that's why I firmly believe it's the right decision and I said as much towards the end of the test series.  Good guy and great batsman but not the right captain for us any more.

That India series was in 1990. Over the next 4 years - he retired in 95 at the end of the ashes series in Aus- he scored 2839 runs post that India series and until his final tour. He had scored 7 test centuries and 10 half centuries over 6 series (including a one off test v Sri lanka). This is from roughly 35-40 innings and before a double century v New Zealand in 94 (he didn't have a good series then). his average also went up from around 41 to 44 post that India series. So, no, Gooch did more than have a good series against india - but yes his end was pretty quick.

Online paul_e

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #126 on: February 08, 2017, 09:29:54 AM »
Gooch had that great home series against India which made him but in the ashes series where he retired he looked utterly broken (him looking lost in that series is one of the most enduring memories I have of watching cricket as a teenager) but then came back and put in a few really good batting performances before he retired.

I think being a good captain without it affecting your own game requires a very specific mindset, partially that's about underlying personality but form/frame of mind/desire all play a part and those things change over time.  There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).  Cook has never been a great game manager anyway and in the last 2-3 series his flaws have been quite stark, that's why I firmly believe it's the right decision and I said as much towards the end of the test series.  Good guy and great batsman but not the right captain for us any more.

That India series was in 1990. Over the next 4 years - he retired in 95 at the end of the ashes series in Aus- he scored 2839 runs post that India series and until his final tour. He had scored 7 test centuries and 10 half centuries over 6 series (including a one off test v Sri lanka). This is from roughly 35-40 innings and before a double century v New Zealand in 94 (he didn't have a good series then). his average also went up from around 41 to 44 post that India series. So, no, Gooch did more than have a good series against india - but yes his end was pretty quick.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I didn't say the India series was all he did well, I said that series made him.  What I was getting at was that he had a series that was almost perfect very quickly after getting the captaincy full time and it almost redefined him as a player.  To get a series like that in his mid-thirties was a huge boost and he had the experience to really use that confidence.

Offline peter w

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #127 on: February 08, 2017, 09:39:39 AM »
I agree that it made him - but I'd go further and say that he became the standard bearer for England openers, and wider batsman, in terms of the hunger for runs. The captaincy helped in that it came to him later and he relished the time he had and wanted to make runs to capitalise on what had come to him later. (The captaincy and the realisation that he revelled in responsibility). Which is why I'm not sure about Root - I tend to prefer the more experienced players in any sport being the captain. There are of course always exceptions in any sport - Smith for SA, Warburton at 22 for Wales, maybe even Beckham for England. Its also why the 'daddy hundred' concept worked for Gooch but again like any sport unless you have that fire to want to win and be successful you can't coach someone to be Gooch.

Online paul_e

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #128 on: February 08, 2017, 10:35:35 AM »
Root has played 53 tests though and is the same age Cook was when he became captain (roughly).  On top of that who else is there?  Ignoring Cook there's only really Broad and Anderson with more experience than Root who are likely to start and I have an even bigger problem with opening bowlers being captains than I do opening batsmen.  Whenever I've seen a quick bowler as captain they all fall 1 of 2 ways and either under bowl themselves or run themselves into the ground.

Offline ACVilla

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
Root has played 53 tests though and is the same age Cook was when he became captain (roughly).  On top of that who else is there?  Ignoring Cook there's only really Broad and Anderson with more experience than Root who are likely to start and I have an even bigger problem with opening bowlers being captains than I do opening batsmen.  Whenever I've seen a quick bowler as captain they all fall 1 of 2 ways and either under bowl themselves or run themselves into the ground.
Maybe we had it right with Mike Brearley.

Offline dcdavecollett

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #130 on: February 09, 2017, 08:27:38 PM »
At least captain Cook's abysmal run of defeats in final tests is now over.

Offline peter w

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2017, 10:20:14 AM »
I'd like Stokes to get it out of the 3 options. Maybe even, and this is a left field one - Ali...

Offline UK Redsox

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2017, 11:44:26 AM »
Joe Root is the new Test captain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38954275

Offline Villan For Life

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2017, 04:44:44 PM »
Joe Root is the new Test captain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38954275

It's the logical appointment and I wish him well. I hope he is able to maintain his form though, we will miss his runs otherwise.

Offline Dave Cooper please

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Re: The Cricket Thread 2017
« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2017, 11:23:42 AM »
One thing I reckon we will see with Root as captain is more of his bowling. He really fancies himself as a bowler but rarely gets a go, he can just bring himself on when he wants now.