Taking back Villa

[bigadamknight]

Hi Guys,

I have been a Villa fan forever. My Dad wasn't a football fan, but Villa won the league two months before I was born and decided that he liked the name. Plus they were successful so I wouldn't have too much disappointment following them (how wrong could he be). I am the first to admit I don't get to as many games as I would like these days. I run two businesses and have three small children. Not the best excuses in the world, but on top of them, the last five matches I have attended were all losses and terrible performances. Which after spending £100 and a day of my life just isn't something I can bring myself to do too often.

So that's my back story, I love Aston Villa and always have done. As I was growing up all my mates supported Man Utd, Liverpool or Spurs and I copped enormous amounts of shit for supporting Villa, but I didn't care they were my team. VTID indeed.

So fast-forward a few years I run two businesses a marketing agency and a software company. One of the things we've helped several companies to do recently is crowdfunding for new products and investments. For anyone that doesn't know crowdfunding is where you go to a lot of people for small investments, rather than trying to find one rich investor. Now I was looking at the Villa Facebook page which has 2.2m likes, and a thought struck me if each person that has liked that page put in £100 that would be a £220,000,000 pot.

So I guess my question here is, if there was a possibility to pay £100 to a) get rid of this owner who has frankly made us a laughing stock and b) be an owner of our fantastic football club yourself. Would you be interested? I'm prepared to do the work in putting a campaign together, but it would be great to know if anyone else would be interested or is this just a ridiculous idea?

What do you think?

Adam

[ozzjim]

I think it is an interesting and lovely romantic concept, but don't think there is the practicality to make it work and be sustainable. 2.2m likes is one thing. Of those you would be lucky to get 20k putting their hand in their pocket I fear.

[Lucky Eddie]

I'm in

[Risso]

Welcome to the site.  The question you pose has been asked a few times, and in my opinion it's just a total non-starter.  Firstly, Facebook likes are no basis for anything.  Our average crowd is 35,000, and even with latent support from the Midlands, there's just not nearly enough people who would be prepared to put money in.  And even in the unlikely event that the funds were raised, who would run the club?  Who would put extra money in were it required?

[Billy Walker]

If something great, groundbreaking and unique could somehow spring up out of the past four/five years of wretchedness, count me in.  I know very little about how fan ownership works or how it could get off the ground in a Villa context but, if it happened, would I be willing to chip in?  Yes.

[gpbarr]

I don't think its as far fetched as some think - there are other British clubs fan owned (Exeter and Portsmouth perhaps the biggest), and Barcelona is owned by 180k members. In American Football, the Packers are a good example.

The question is one of structure (what does membership mean), equity (how does it work when members leave), and numbers (the membership has to be at a price that's going to effect meaning). As Risso said, likes and buyers are two very different things. To get to a pot big enough to be taken seriously as a buyer, you'd need to raise 200m min. I'd argue membership could be offered at $10k which means you'd need to find 20k memberships (members can buy lots if so desired meaning someone wealthy wanting to put in $200k would receive the power of 10 memberships).

Could it be done - possibly, but seriously hard work and not something to even be started without a very credible and serious legal proposal because people willing and able to buy in would likely see this as a financial investment, not necessarily a 'fan movement'.   

 

[robbyfvillain]

I don't think its as far fetched as some think - there are other British clubs fan owned (Exeter and Portsmouth perhaps the biggest), and Barcelona is owned by 180k members. In American Football, the Packers are a good example.

The question is one of structure (what does membership mean), equity (how does it work when members leave), and numbers (the membership has to be at a price that's going to effect meaning). As Risso said, likes and buyers are two very different things. To get to a pot big enough to be taken seriously as a buyer, you'd need to raise 200m min. I'd argue membership could be offered at $10k which means you'd need to find 20k memberships (members can buy lots if so desired meaning someone wealthy wanting to put in $200k would receive the power of 10 memberships).

Could it be done - possibly, but seriously hard work and not something to even be started without a very credible and serious legal proposal because people willing and able to buy in would likely see this as a financial investment, not necessarily a 'fan movement'.

Isn't what you said destroyed your own argument. If people are seeing it as an investment and hence attracting $200k from some then it is no longer 'taking it back' as a fans movement. I guess the average fan would struggle to justify more than 1k which for a fans movement would require 200k fans. Can't see it myself.

[bigadamknight]

OK so if you look at how Barcelona and Real Madrid are structured. They have 150,000+ members who pay an annual fee of €140. This obviously only raises €21m a season but they have other revenue streams. The members also get discounted season tickets, discounts in stores and other perks like free access to open training and stadium tours and events.

I suppose it comes down to the fact we are all hoping some mega-rich messiah is going to come along and fund massive spending. I don't think this is going to happen. For every Roman Abramovich or Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan there's ten Sacha Gaydamak's.

Perhaps there could be an initial investment fund to get the club away from the current owners and then an annual scheme like Barcelona's to bring in some extra income and help to manage how the club runs. Surely there would be some ex-players that could get involved too, put some thing back in to where they got so much.

I believe some fan-run clubs do it differently but I think in Spain a President is elected by the members for a specific term (4 years) but if for any reason the fans are unhappy with his performance they have a right to recall him if a certain percentage of the members feel the need to do so. Ian Taylor for President???

This idea is maybe a week old so needs development but even just looking at the accounts over the last few years. When you look at where the money has gone. The amount that has gone to players that have frankly not been good enough but still getting paid astronomical wages. Let's not even start on Tom Fox... Taking this year as an example can anyone say if we had played our U21's they would have faired any worse? I know Leicester are having an absolute dream of a season but they really are showing what you can do with a team who genuinely play for each other and for the fans. I think it's the fans here that have been taken for granted at every single level.

Maybe this could be the chance to create an example of how things could/should be.

[PeterWithesShin]

It's one of those ideas that as Ozz says, sounds great and romantic, in reality it will never happen. There's a reason Portsmouth are the biggest fan owned club in this country, how much did the fans pay for a 4th division club in administration for what, the third time in a few years? A couple of million iirc. Exeter fans paid something like 20K for a club in the Conference a decade ago, and that was mainly because most of the board at the time were arrested. The trust has raised less than £2m for the club since.

What the trusts at those clubs have done is great in securing their clubs still exist, and all power to them, but it is a world apart from fans buying a club like Aston Villa, even a division 2 Aston Villa.

[gpbarr]

I don't think its as far fetched as some think - there are other British clubs fan owned (Exeter and Portsmouth perhaps the biggest), and Barcelona is owned by 180k members. In American Football, the Packers are a good example.

The question is one of structure (what does membership mean), equity (how does it work when members leave), and numbers (the membership has to be at a price that's going to effect meaning). As Risso said, likes and buyers are two very different things. To get to a pot big enough to be taken seriously as a buyer, you'd need to raise 200m min. I'd argue membership could be offered at $10k which means you'd need to find 20k memberships (members can buy lots if so desired meaning someone wealthy wanting to put in $200k would receive the power of 10 memberships).

Could it be done - possibly, but seriously hard work and not something to even be started without a very credible and serious legal proposal because people willing and able to buy in would likely see this as a financial investment, not necessarily a 'fan movement'.

Isn't what you said destroyed your own argument. If people are seeing it as an investment and hence attracting $200k from some then it is no longer 'taking it back' as a fans movement. I guess the average fan would struggle to justify more than 1k which for a fans movement would require 200k fans. Can't see it myself.

Uh no. I never said it was about taking back Villa. I was responding to the notion of could it be done. It can. But as others have said, highly unlikely and incredibly difficult

[sickbeggar]

Even if you could raise the raise, then you have the problem of running it properly and  the need to appoint people who know their job in business but may not be Villa "fans" because most people can't just devote all their time to the club without having money to live. You only have to look at FCUnited and how that has descended into major squabbles because everyone has a different idea of how it should be run, and as happens with any supporter base, you get factions and cliques developing. Think you really need to someone in overall charge, and being the only person rich enough to afford the club gives you some sort of authority to make decisions if nothing else.

[IFWaters]

I raised this on the takeovers thread and got a mix of support and poo-pooing.

I think there are a few key things :

1) How you finance the initial purchase - as its unlikely the say 50k fans needed all have on average the 3k each needed to buy it in cash outright. You would need a financial institution to help finance a purchase ie a secured loan (Villa mortgage) - if you default they get your Villa shares.

As an example , say you have to put up 20% upfront -say £600 and then pay 6% (it would have to be higher than normal rates as it carries greater risk for the lender) and the repayment period is 5 years then the monthly payment would be £46.

I would recommend a share value of £100 each. Maximum initial shares per person 10,000. Villa mortgages available from £2000 to £30000 - whatever the bank limits are.

2) You would need an annual membership fee to generate approx 20 to 25 million. If we had 50,000 members then thats £400 to £500 which is steep but you would probably need the funding to finance spending.

3) You would have to have a board of the great and the good to run things with an elected chair with fixed term but recall if over 50% of shareholders say they are dis-satisfied. You can't run a football club through the rabble of fan meetings or Internet forums.

4) Personally I think for this to work there would need to be a way of the players and manager sharing in the risks and rewards. The current setup allows laziness and greed which has infected the whole game. I don't mind a centre forward earning £100k a week but only if the results justify it. Put simply, players get a base amount and then a significant bonus for every point in a game they have played in. Eg a player now on 50k a week gets £20k basic plus £20k for every point - would certainly incentivise me if winning got me an extra £40k a week.

And yes, all of the above is fantasy but we can dream can't we?

[cdbearsfan]

I'm out. The only way we can get successful again is to find loads of rich, competent people to run the club. Ordinary fans wouldn't have the money to even compete with clubs in the Championship let alone get ourselves back competing at the top end of the Premier League again. In any case, I already spend too much money on the useless bastards.

An elected fan representative would be good PR though.

[London Villan]

Pipe dreams yes, but as an example as part of the deal if you offer a kit manufacturer the rights to the shirts for 10 years at a fee of £25m there's a start

[Witton Warrior]

I will put in my £550 ST money if it means I don't have to watch this crap for a couple of seasons