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Author Topic: Our new style of play  (Read 14524 times)

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2015, 05:48:00 PM »
When we'd play horrible direct stuff under Lambert, I liked to think that this was a case of players not doing what he was telling them to, that it wasn't because he wanted us to play that way.

Then when Culverhouse and Karsa got sacked, there was stuff that turned up in the press, players saying that, amongst other things, they'd been training them in long ball tactics.

Again, I thought that was probably not actually true, and it was embellishment of the story by journalists.

Then we get to this point, where we have this new style, and we're hearing players talk about it on the OS almost every day. Benteke gave an interview over christmas (to a Belgian paper, I believe) in which he specifically said that the previous tactic was to launch the ball long at him, whereas now, we are trying to build up slowly from the back, and that it is markedly different.

Now, that is the bit that concerns me the most, it looks more and more like, actually, all that long ball shit, all the hopeful lumping it towards Benteke, all those matches with 25% possession where we just played hopeless 50/50 balls at best, all that nonsense, actually, it was something the manager wanted us to do, that really was his style - it was intentional.

I honestly think he's a chancer, really. I adhere to the "nice bloke" line, I bet he is, I just don't think that is anything like enough to make up for the awful results and performances.

He looks, to me, like a brilliant example of a manager with very limited technical abilities, who did well bringing a side up over a period of time, and keeping them up, but then faced a situation where he might fail, and to fail would have bigger ramifications - the bigger the club, the bigger the expectaitons, the harder the fail - and he has done precisely that, failed.

All this new style stuff, whilst admirable, he looks to me like a bloke who is just clutching at straws, doing what he has to till he gets that usual unexpected win that buys him more time.

Online Chris Smith

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2015, 06:00:44 PM »
I think had Benteke been fit we might have seen the switch earlier. It is difficult to play this way without forwards who can hold the ball up and it is not a strength of Gabby or Andi.


Online Monty

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2015, 06:03:30 PM »
It is difficult, but it's even harder to play long-ball with a striker like Gabby or Weimann.

Offline cheltenhamlion

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2015, 06:05:37 PM »
We remind me of Olbiyun under Mowbray. Lots of tippy tappy possession with no end product. As someone remarked upon that team, they remind him of a lesbian. Fantastic at the foreplay but zero penetration in the box.

Offline adrenachrome

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2015, 06:22:13 PM »
Part of the issue right now is that many of the players Lambert has signed to date were signed to play previously employed systems. Now, if he really wants this new system to work then he will need to go a different route in his player acquisition strategy. It also begs the question, had he played this system all along would Benteke even have been signed in the first place?

Not sure I agree with this.

Take a look at Westwood, Bennett, Lowton, Cole etc. Would they be better employed playing as we currently do ie slow passing, relying on the fullbacks to get forward or long ball bypassing the team and getting players around Benteke.

I'd say it's how we are playing now, which makes why he bought them in the first place and then played a system that doesn't suit all the more baffling to me. That leads me to think he's just throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks. Nothing is planned.

We have done the passing around in triangles thing throughout his reign, it is nothing new. What is new is that we are starting the process earlier, in the first phase of play. So Brad is now rolling it sideways instead of kicking for position. The ball was coming back too quickly too often so we have decided to keep it for a bit longer before handing it over.

In fact, I have lost count of the times before the so-called new style where a player suddenly found himself with acres of space to run at and still passed it short.  It is as though they have been programmed like those robotic vacuum cleaners. When Lowton made that run in the famous Sunderland game I could not believe my eyes.

I think the idea has always been to ping it around in little triangles to draw the opposition in and then uncoil like a spring and counter attack. The only time it has ever worked at home is when a team is overconfident as far I can see. If they sit back and defend competently they have a very good chance of leaving with at least a point.   

 


Offline supertom

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2015, 06:50:31 PM »
I think we'd be helped enormously by keeping a midfield base of just two, rather than continuing to do a 3 man mid where no one really takes up the mantel of breaking into the box or trying to get forward to make some penetrative passes. Lamberts 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 system has rarely worked. I'd rather we switched to a 4-2-3-1, allowing someone, either Cole, Grealish or perhaps trying Cleverley (and lighting a rocket up his arse) to play in the 10 position. In addition we need the wide players to use the flanks and go on the outside more to help out the fullbacks, and also so we don't expect all our width to come from the fullbacks.

All too often in that 3 man CM we have one player (mostly TC) who becomes utterly redundant.

Offline ktvillan

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2015, 08:04:10 PM »
Wouldn't it be nice if we could switch to different styles/tactics as the opposition and situation dictates? Fine to be patient when there is not much on but preferably with some movement to drag defenders around a bit and an occasional killer pass to try and make something happen.  But then to mix it up a bit why not play the occasional long ball into Benteke or over the top to either take the opposition by surprise or just if he is in space.  Or do a quick 3-4 pass counter attack if it is the best option and on.    I just don't see why a team has to stick with one approach even in a single game, especially as we don't seem capable of making any single approach work that well.   It would require a bit of nous, concentration and game-reading intelligence from the players involved, and probably one, maybe two "playmaker" types  to dictate the moves and set the tempo.   Perhaps Lambert doesn't trust the players to be that adaptable, or maybe the players really aren't up to it, but could say Sanchez and Delph pull the strings like this if asked to?

Offline Matt Collins

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2015, 08:15:02 PM »
I'm up for the new style but I'd want to see 4231 and we need two to three more players to play in the three. The rest of the side is top half premier league for the most part. At the moment the options for the three are little better than championship standard

Offline adrenachrome

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2015, 08:24:18 PM »
Wouldn't it be nice if we could switch to different styles/tactics as the opposition and situation dictates? Fine to be patient when there is not much on but preferably with some movement to drag defenders around a bit and an occasional killer pass to try and make something happen.  But then to mix it up a bit why not play the occasional long ball into Benteke or over the top to either take the opposition by surprise or just if he is in space.  Or do a quick 3-4 pass counter attack if it is the best option and on.    I just don't see why a team has to stick with one approach even in a single game, especially as we don't seem capable of making any single approach work that well.   It would require a bit of nous, concentration and game-reading intelligence from the players involved, and probably one, maybe two "playmaker" types  to dictate the moves and set the tempo.   Perhaps Lambert doesn't trust the players to be that adaptable, or maybe the players really aren't up to it, but could say Sanchez and Delph pull the strings like this if asked to?

We are sadly bereft of the key qualities which you mention.  No effective leadership on the pitch for starters. A definite dearth of little grey cells as well.

Online Chris Smith

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2015, 08:24:42 PM »
It is difficult, but it's even harder to play long-ball with a striker like Gabby or Weimann.

Which is why I think we tried to play a counter attacking game, bringing teams on to us to try to get them in on the break. Clearly without much success but that appeared to me to be the general idea.

Offline frankmosswasmyuncle

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2015, 08:36:01 PM »
Wouldn't it be nice if we could switch to different styles/tactics as the opposition and situation dictates? Fine to be patient when there is not much on but preferably with some movement to drag defenders around a bit and an occasional killer pass to try and make something happen.  But then to mix it up a bit why not play the occasional long ball into Benteke or over the top to either take the opposition by surprise or just if he is in space.  Or do a quick 3-4 pass counter attack if it is the best option and on.    I just don't see why a team has to stick with one approach even in a single game, especially as we don't seem capable of making any single approach work that well.   It would require a bit of nous, concentration and game-reading intelligence from the players involved, and probably one, maybe two "playmaker" types  to dictate the moves and set the tempo.   Perhaps Lambert doesn't trust the players to be that adaptable, or maybe the players really aren't up to it, but could say Sanchez and Delph pull the strings like this if asked to?

We are sadly bereft of the key qualities which you mention.  No effective leadership on the pitch for starters. A definite dearth of little grey cells as well.
This.

And I just don't see our players enjoying what they're doing or doing it with confidence and belief.

eg: against Stoke and 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' away I could see a sense of solidity and spirit about the team that showed us (and the opposition) that we're up for it and can cope, thanks very much.
Since then we've looked scared and reticent for much of the time.
Bad vibes dude.

Offline Dante Lavelli

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2015, 09:24:27 PM »
I think we'd be helped enormously by keeping a midfield base of just two, rather than continuing to do a 3 man mid where no one really takes up the mantel of breaking into the box or trying to get forward to make some penetrative passes. Lamberts 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 system has rarely worked. I'd rather we switched to a 4-2-3-1, allowing someone, either Cole, Grealish or perhaps trying Cleverley (and lighting a rocket up his arse) to play in the 10 position. In addition we need the wide players to use the flanks and go on the outside more to help out the fullbacks, and also so we don't expect all our width to come from the fullbacks.

All too often in that 3 man CM we have one player (mostly TC) who becomes utterly redundant.

Ideally the 433 and 4231 should be pretty interchangeable i.e. not ridged system, after all its probably a difference of about ten meters on the pitch.  What is required is the freedom for a player (or players) to make that shift and for the whole system not to collapse when they do.  As others have said this player movement and game management needs practice/coaching and also good communication on the pitch.  It's hard to say whether that is happening, or indeed whether the team communicate effectively.

I must admit that I was pleased to hear that Westwood was dropping into a 3 man defence on Sunday, not because it is a tactical masterstroke, but because it implies that 'something' is happening on the training ground and that the players have the autonomy to try and change things on the pitch.

Offline supertom

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2015, 10:01:54 PM »
I think we'd be helped enormously by keeping a midfield base of just two, rather than continuing to do a 3 man mid where no one really takes up the mantel of breaking into the box or trying to get forward to make some penetrative passes. Lamberts 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 system has rarely worked. I'd rather we switched to a 4-2-3-1, allowing someone, either Cole, Grealish or perhaps trying Cleverley (and lighting a rocket up his arse) to play in the 10 position. In addition we need the wide players to use the flanks and go on the outside more to help out the fullbacks, and also so we don't expect all our width to come from the fullbacks.

All too often in that 3 man CM we have one player (mostly TC) who becomes utterly redundant.

Ideally the 433 and 4231 should be pretty interchangeable i.e. not ridged system, after all its probably a difference of about ten meters on the pitch.  What is required is the freedom for a player (or players) to make that shift and for the whole system not to collapse when they do.  As others have said this player movement and game management needs practice/coaching and also good communication on the pitch.  It's hard to say whether that is happening, or indeed whether the team communicate effectively.

I must admit that I was pleased to hear that Westwood was dropping into a 3 man defence on Sunday, not because it is a tactical masterstroke, but because it implies that 'something' is happening on the training ground and that the players have the autonomy to try and change things on the pitch.
We played him there in pre-season one game and he actually relished the extra space. He was less an auxiliary defender and more like an even deeper (poor man's) Pirlo.
I doubt it would work in the Premiership though. We'd get opened up and we could find ourselves with Ash caught out as the last man if we're not careful.

Offline ChicagoLion

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2015, 10:17:50 PM »
Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
We also do it extremely slowly.

Offline Villa in Denmark

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Re: Our new style of play
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2015, 10:27:15 PM »
I read an interview with Guardiola, just after he started with Bayern, where he got a bit arsey with the journalist, who'd asked him if he was going to turn them into a possession based 100 pass type team like Barcelona had been.

I can't remember the exact quote but his reply was basically if the option for a quick break was on, you took it.

If you were trying to break down a packed defence, then with the players he'd got at Barcelona, the best way was the quick short passing game, but the key was varying the tempo and always using movement to try to get the opposition to overload one side of the pitch in their desperation to win the ball back.  Once they'd got that overload, then quickly switch to the opposite flank to attack the space created.  He was absolute in rejecting Tika Taka as a concept, as in his eyes that was just possession for the sake of it.

 


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