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Author Topic: Dictatorial Villa?  (Read 24472 times)

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2014, 06:07:46 PM »
It is very easy these days to get your voice heard through social media.  Almost as easy to make it look like the voice of a group when it is only the individual or a few, rather than the majority.

I do not know about the structure of the various Lions Clubs and their official link back to the club so I may be barking up the wrong tree.  It is clear that you have to have rules, guidelines or whatever to affiliate one organisation with another.  The examples given in the article do not sound dictatorial to me.  I would have thought the club will welcome constructive criticism through the right channels.  What they do not want is a member of an individual branch shouting their mouth of, being abusive and purporting to represent the branch.

Offline ciggiesnbeer

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2014, 06:20:41 PM »
Aston Villa in doesn't want Chairmen/women of official supporters clubs to be abusing people online shocker!

This is a story how exactly?

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2014, 06:27:46 PM »
Aston Villa in doesn't want Chairmen/women of official supporters clubs to be abusing people online shocker!

This is a story how exactly?

The question is whether they have the right to tell the people what they should and should not be doing on the internet.

Also, note this:

“You will not partake in any abusive conversations towards anyone associated with the Club in any public forum, whether this is on a page that is personal to you and bears your name, OR on a page that bears the name of your Lions Club (including social media, Facebook, Twitter, etc).”

I am not one of those people, so there is a limit to how upset I can get about it, but I do think it seems like unnecessary control by the club, coming at a time when, frankly, they need all the support they can get.

Then, who defines what "abuse" is?

It is one of those terms which is easily defined differently from one person to another.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 06:31:03 PM by pauliewalnuts »

Online Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2014, 06:28:40 PM »
The difference between criticism and abuse.

Criticism is the opinions most of us have reasonably said about the managerial abilities or otherwise of Lambert, McLeish, Houllier, and O'Neill.

Abuse is the opinions I hope all of us have reasonably said about the personal qualities or otherwise of O'Leary.

Offline ciggiesnbeer

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2014, 06:40:09 PM »

I am not one of those people, so there is a limit to how upset I can get about it, but I do think it seems like unnecessary control by the club, coming at a time when, frankly, they need all the support they can get.

Then, who defines what "abuse" is?

It is one of those terms which is easily defined differently from one person to another.

Oh I agree with that. Although most sites (maybe this one, I confess I have not read it) have some terms f service which talk about abuse.

But I think the non story aspect of this is nobody is gagging anybody and there is zero chance of the club really stripping anybody of an "official" supporters role because they said "Tonev played shit today." on their crappy little twitter feed.

The instances of this mattering would be very rare, personal abuse of Lamberts family for example, or racially abusing one of our players springs to mind.

I think they have wasted their time writing the whole thing, by writing the whole thing, I include Villa's Lions terms, the Mail's non story, the couple of Lions chairmen who are whining about non being able to abuse people and me for writing this.  :D

Offline old man villa fan

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2014, 06:43:52 PM »
Aston Villa in doesn't want Chairmen/women of official supporters clubs to be abusing people online shocker!

This is a story how exactly?

The question is whether they have the right to tell the people what they should and should not be doing on the internet.

Also, note this:

“You will not partake in any abusive conversations towards anyone associated with the Club in any public forum, whether this is on a page that is personal to you and bears your name, OR on a page that bears the name of your Lions Club (including social media, Facebook, Twitter, etc).”

I am not one of those people, so there is a limit to how upset I can get about it, but I do think it seems like unnecessary control by the club, coming at a time when, frankly, they need all the support they can get.

Then, who defines what "abuse" is?

It is one of those terms which is easily defined differently from one person to another.

Why is it these days that everybody expects to say what they like, at any time, about anybody and be as abusive as they like.  Even more so when the person on the end of what they say is not in a position to defend themselves.  I suppose it is all down to what people think is 'freedom of speech' in their written comments.  What some people forget is 'subject to the laws against libel', which fortunately for many are not pursued.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 06:45:38 PM by old man villa fan »

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2014, 06:49:16 PM »
Aston Villa in doesn't want Chairmen/women of official supporters clubs to be abusing people online shocker!

This is a story how exactly?

The question is whether they have the right to tell the people what they should and should not be doing on the internet.

Also, note this:

“You will not partake in any abusive conversations towards anyone associated with the Club in any public forum, whether this is on a page that is personal to you and bears your name, OR on a page that bears the name of your Lions Club (including social media, Facebook, Twitter, etc).”

I am not one of those people, so there is a limit to how upset I can get about it, but I do think it seems like unnecessary control by the club, coming at a time when, frankly, they need all the support they can get.

Then, who defines what "abuse" is?

It is one of those terms which is easily defined differently from one person to another.

Why is it these days that everybody expects to say what they like, at any time, about anybody and be as abusive as they like.  Even more so when the person on the end of what they say is not in a position to defend themselves.  I suppose it is all down to what people think is 'freedom of speech' in their written comments.  What some people forget is 'subject to the laws against libel', which fortunately for many are not pursued.

Yes, that's true, and that is the entire problem with this - where does "critical" become "abusive", and who gets to decide?

And why should that apply to what Lions Club people say in their personal capacity on the internet?

What I don't get is, why introduce this now, at a time when, frankly, the club needs as much support as it can get? Why stir up this controversy at all? Whichever rules we had in place could just have been continued, so why take the route of most resistance?

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2014, 06:50:07 PM »
The instances of this mattering would be very rare, personal abuse of Lamberts family for example, or racially abusing one of our players springs to mind.

Yes, I'd agree with that, but the question is, where is the line being drawn generally?

And something like racial abuse is illegal in any case, so that would go without saying.

Offline bertlambshank

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2014, 06:51:01 PM »
Wasn't the Lions Club independent of the club back in the day?

Offline ciggiesnbeer

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2014, 07:00:03 PM »
The instances of this mattering would be very rare, personal abuse of Lamberts family for example, or racially abusing one of our players springs to mind.

Yes, I'd agree with that, but the question is, where is the line being drawn generally?

And something like racial abuse is illegal in any case, so that would go without saying.

The line is crazy hard to draw its one of those "know it when I see it" things. It is why I think putting it in there was a waste of time. Much better to just turf people out of organizations retroactively if they behave badly and have the whole terms be "Just don't be a prick, ok?" It conveys the same meaning but a lot clearer.

Offline CAitken

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2014, 09:00:03 PM »
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/aston-villa-fans-backlash-over-7552040

Is there anything in this story or someone just shit stirring ?.

I think the one point where the problem lies is "you must not get involved in any abusive conversations involving the club".
It depends what they consider abusive. Is constructive criticism classed as abusive?

Exactly.

What, for example, is this: "Tonev is shit"? Other than a fact obviously ;-)

 That could be interpreted as either.

If you wrote to Tonev and said You are shit, that would be abusive. It's called grammar.

Offline peter w

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2014, 10:06:24 PM »
To be honest I don't think it was meant as a legal document  but just a working framework. I doibt they would even get involved in most type of abusive mentioned here. However, I do wonder if this is a very American type of contract? Whether they are saying 'Don't criticise Randy' in particular? If so then that is intolerable.

The supporters clubs may be just volunteers but they do get a privilege position in terms of links with the club, tickets, promotions, and I'm sure a lot more. If this the former as mentioned above, it should have just been ignored by the supporters groups and they should have just spoken with the club privately regarding their concerns.

Offline amfy

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2014, 11:00:16 PM »

Offline peter w

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Offline pbavfckuwait

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Re: Dictatorial Villa?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2014, 06:01:36 AM »
Well they have missed out on one benefit over the last couple of years.
Chairmans Meetings hosted at Villa Park

 


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