Full backs who actually defend?

[Gregorys Boy]

It seems that one of the main reasons we are struggling at the back is because of the full backs constantly being caught out of position.   Come to think of it do we actually have any full backs who are not attacking players and actually see their sole purpose to defend?  I know people see Hutton as this.  It is true he is tough in the tackle and likes to see rough people up (which to be fair could be a midfielders job just as much), but certainly during pre-season he has been getting forward quite a lot, not to mention than outside a few decent tackles I don't see him as the best defender.  Lowton has promise, but again I would say that is more of an attacking full back.   Bacuna is not a full back, but is sometimes played there at which point he becomes a wing back and might as well because his defenisve play is pretty much zero.   Luna also fits the wing back role.   Bennett is maybe more defenisve, but still learning the game.   I guess Richardson could be useful back there certain games.   But I really think we could do with signing someone in that position who actually takes care of defending first.

[Chipsticks]

Honestly looking at the players we've brought in (Richardson who can play as a wingback) and the formations we played last season I'm convinced our starting formation is due to be 3-5-2 with wingbacks next season. I like it, has good balance to it and now we have an actual play-maker in Joe Cole I think it'll work.

[paul_e]

Who has fullbacks who are predominantly 'defenders first' in the league?  I can't think of many, there are some world class players who are great at both (Zabaleta for example) and there are a few centre backs playing out of position (Ivanovic).

The problem isn't as simple as signing full backs.

We 3 major issues in our defence:

1. We are very narrow, look at the position of the opposite fullback when we're defending out wide, they're often stood around the penalty spot, that leaves a lot of space for the crossfield pass, which was the main weapon teams used against us.

2. We defend too deep, our midfield and defence are often within a metre or 2 of each other, which leaves a big gap between them and our forwards who get crowded out and struggle to hold on to the ball which means teams can build up pressure, with our inexperience we then make mistakes.

3. Our fullbacks get isolated too easily.  For 433 (or similar) shapes to work you need either a central midfielder or the wide forward to get back and help the fullback, this doesn't happen meaning the fullback often has the choice to press the ball or track the overlapping fullback, the former leaves lots of space for the FB to cross, the latter allows the wide player to cut in and shoot.

All 3 problems are a result of the players not trusting each other to do their job, and is something that should have been addressed by coaching last summer.

[tomd2103]

Who has fullbacks who are predominantly 'defenders first' in the league?  I can't think of many, there are some world class players who are great at both (Zabaleta for example) and there are a few centre backs playing out of position (Ivanovic).

He's moved on now, but Ashley Cole is probably the last high profile traditional type of full-back I can think of, in that he is a solid defender first and foremost.  That's certainly not the case with the likes of Shaw, Baines, Johnson and Walker.  I really don't think our full-backs offer enough going forward to compensate for how defensively poor they are.     

[Dave]

Who has fullbacks who are predominantly 'defenders first' in the league?  I can't think of many, there are some world class players who are great at both (Zabaleta for example) and there are a few centre backs playing out of position (Ivanovic).

On this, how long does a player have to play in a position before it stops being 'out of position'? He's played at right-back pretty much permanently for Chelsea for the last three years and is first-choice right back for Serbia as well.

I don't think we still saw Gareth Southgate as an out-of-position central midfielder three years into his Villa career...

[paul_e]

Who has fullbacks who are predominantly 'defenders first' in the league?  I can't think of many, there are some world class players who are great at both (Zabaleta for example) and there are a few centre backs playing out of position (Ivanovic).

On this, how long does a player have to play in a position before it stops being 'out of position'? He's played at right-back pretty much permanently for Chelsea for the last three years and is first-choice right back for Serbia as well.

I don't think we still saw Gareth Southgate as an out-of-position central midfielder three years into his Villa career...

Fair enough, I generally use it when i think someone is playing in a position where they're not as good and I still think Ivanovic would be better as a central defender, but I agree he's played RB for a long time now.

[edgysatsuma89]

It's a position that really frustrates me nowadays. I'm of the opinion that if you're a full back as part of a four man defence then actually being able to defend is far more important than the ability to attack. There are 6 men in front of you for that. I look at the likes of marcelo and alves, and just think their teams are mugging themselves off if they think they are full backs. I know i have zero confidence when johnson plays for england, I'm always of the mind set 'well he's going to get torn a new one'. It's such an obvious weakness. We are very much not alone in having poor defensive full backs though, just other teams 'defend' front to back better. Zabaleta is a player and a half though.

[peter w]

I think full-backs have it difficult because defensively it is very tough position. You're either up against a tricky winger, a fleet of foot wide man, or is likely to get overloaded with a two against one situation. You have to rely on the player in front of you to give you cover and quite a lot of the time you're having to get drawn inside to cover the centre of defence. Being able to read the game doesn't necessarily help as it does in the centre as even a nicked ball sees your players not in a position to attack due to being wide in defence when under pressure any ball out or trick is fraught with danger as, again, you're usually under pressure from opposition players.

That's why the best full-backs are those that can push the opposition wide players back wary of their counter-attacking threat. That is the perfect full-back and that is the player all sides want.

[ciggiesnbeer]

Part of the modern game now though isn't it? Full backs end up being where the space is and coaches now value them as an attacking / creative threat far more than they used to.

I rather like the KIND of full back Lambert wants. Extremely athletic, main focus is starting attacks. It is just that is a very very hard role to recruit.

[brontebilly]

Part of the modern game now though isn't it? Full backs end up being where the space is and coaches now value them as an attacking / creative threat far more than they used to.

I rather like the KIND of full back Lambert wants. Extremely athletic, main focus is starting attacks. It is just that is a very very hard role to recruit.

Lambert doesnt like wingers so in order to get some bit of width in our play, our full backs have got to get forward. Bacuna, Lowton, Bertrand have at times got forward pretty well in a Villa shirt. Certainly better than the previous incumbents under McLeish - Hutton and Warnock.

Unfortunately our midfield is so poor we give little or no support to a defence that is inadequate anyway at full back and centre half. Ferguson and Mourinho like playing a stopper at right back, as did our old manager Sir Martin. I'm not a huge fan of playing clearly inadequate footballers at full back e.g. Cuellar, Smalling but the likes of Brown and O'Shea did a very good job for Ferguson at times.

Lambert's problem though is that the players he has bought to play full back have been awful. Dont see that improving with Hutton and Richardson as wing backs. The thought of Senderos playing in a three man central defence getting dragged out of the centre is scary.

I really cant see Lowton finishing the season in the top division, honestly thought he was well and truly found out last season. Zero pace or positional sense, physically weak and an attitude problem to boot. Bennett will never make it either while Luna and Stevens will hopefully not even start the season in a Villa shirt. Bacuna seemed to not want to play full back last season. So Hutton and Richardson it is 

[Matt Collins]

There's a lot adding up to us playing 352: the CB options, Richardson, cole, we can play 3 in the middle, allows one (or two when benteke is out) of gabby, bent or Weimann to play up front, suits joe cole's preference

But . .

1. Most of the time we've played that way it's looked more 532. We've really struggled to keep the ball at all - I mean like 23% possession.

2. If we play the normal 3 in midfield that's a very defensive looking set up. Only two really attacking players. We've sometimes looked more potent and fluid  with Holman or n'zogbia in the hole, but that leaves us looking a bit threadbare

3. Cole could be the half way house option. But he's not gonna play too many games and although he says he prefers playing centrally to be frank I think he's a bit of a luxury there. He doesn't like playing a disciplined winger role but that's where he got most of his goals and assists.

4. The first half performance the other night showed up all of these problems plus we looked ropey at the back - particularly down the outsides of our defence.

I reckon he'll switch it around a fair bit. I think we do that too much though and it leaves us struggling for rhythm, pattern and shape.

[SoccerHQ]

Luke Young was a very good defender I thought, strangely better at left back.

Could put Mellberg in but that would be cheating given he's a CB. Bouma was always excellent one on one.

I do agree it's a dying breed with the way people want the game to be played know and focus on technique.

[KevinGage]

A Luke Young-type now would be ideal.

And whilst he might not have been an attacking fullback in the sense that he could get to the byline and get crosses in, he could surge up the pitch at reasonable pace, and then play the simple pass.  Sometimes that's all it takes. 

[Holte L2]

Earl Barrett's and Steve Staunton are the best full back's I've seen in my time. Both cracking defenders but were both very capable of getting forwards.
Staunton had one of the best left foots I've seen at the Villa. Absolutely cracking player.

[ozzjim]

Bouma was quality for about 18 months before the injury. But then he had played centre half a fair bit. The best defensive full backs are the centre halves who are athletic and comfortable enough to play full back.