Quote from: Monty on April 24, 2014, 07:12:10 PMDisagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division? It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.Amen to that, Monty.
Disagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division? It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.
Are they having a purple patch or is the system just getting them to play better? Seeing as it's gone on for pretty much the season, my guess is the latter, and this includes getting Aiden McGeady to play well - you'll agree, something of a miracle. And though they were good players anyway, they've already got more points than last season and more goals than they ever managed under Moyes. I'd have thought it almost a truism that scoring more goals gives you a better chance of doing better in a league. Once more, I don't see how it does him discredit to have made good signings.Moyes is clearly better than MON. He uses his squad better, he makes better signings from wider away and for better money, and younger at that. He also isn't insanely addicted to the midfield-conceding nonsense of old-fashioned 4-4-2. Still, he hasn't kept with the developments of the last five years or so, and while this wasn't exposed at Everton where he had put good structures in from older days, having to start from scratch again has exposed his limitations pretty brutally. MON was outdated ten years ago, but Moyes is outdated now. Football moves very quickly, and failure to adapt is fatal.I think your last paragraph is an determinedly lugubrious way of looking at the situation. City haven't done much wrong, nor really Chelsea, but Liverpool have won 11 in a row which is madness. As for the top four, while United, Spurs and now Arsenal have underachieved, the fact that Everton have improved on last season seems indicative in and of itself.
Quote from: hoyle87 on April 24, 2014, 07:00:14 PMSmall steps guys.A lot of you seem to not want Moyes because his glass ceiling is probably similar to MON's (5th/6th) due to his style of football. However I think some people are forgetting just how irrelevant we've become to many other PL sides these days, 'Villa used to have something about them' type comments are all top regular in my ear for my liking. Although they are true. We've been a bottom 6 side scraping around the 40 point mark for 3 years (4 if you include Houllier's), you can't just ignore this due to our traditions, it's where we are at this moment in time and have been for a while.I want us to be relevant again, competing in the top half of the division and for Villa Park not to be such a piss easy ground to come to for 3 points. Moyes would make us hard to beat, improve our home record considerably and I'd be very surprised if we weren't top 8 within 2 seasons. Over a longer period of time, no he probably wouldn't be able to take us above around 6th or get us passing teams off the park. I'm not sure who some fans think we could attract in the mean time who would play such a great style and transform us from bottom 6 regulars to top 6.We need a period of stability with a decent manager in charge, or we'll go down, that's the way we are heading. Moyes fits the bill and I can't see many other candidates in his mould, if he came in, it doesn't mean it'd be for 11 years like he spent at Everton. If our board were ambitious enough, they'd dispense of a manager when they thought he'd taken us as far as we could.Spot on.
Small steps guys.A lot of you seem to not want Moyes because his glass ceiling is probably similar to MON's (5th/6th) due to his style of football. However I think some people are forgetting just how irrelevant we've become to many other PL sides these days, 'Villa used to have something about them' type comments are all top regular in my ear for my liking. Although they are true. We've been a bottom 6 side scraping around the 40 point mark for 3 years (4 if you include Houllier's), you can't just ignore this due to our traditions, it's where we are at this moment in time and have been for a while.I want us to be relevant again, competing in the top half of the division and for Villa Park not to be such a piss easy ground to come to for 3 points. Moyes would make us hard to beat, improve our home record considerably and I'd be very surprised if we weren't top 8 within 2 seasons. Over a longer period of time, no he probably wouldn't be able to take us above around 6th or get us passing teams off the park. I'm not sure who some fans think we could attract in the mean time who would play such a great style and transform us from bottom 6 regulars to top 6.We need a period of stability with a decent manager in charge, or we'll go down, that's the way we are heading. Moyes fits the bill and I can't see many other candidates in his mould, if he came in, it doesn't mean it'd be for 11 years like he spent at Everton. If our board were ambitious enough, they'd dispense of a manager when they thought he'd taken us as far as we could.
If we got a new manager who wanted to play football on the floor it would not shock me in the least to suddenly see some of the current crop of players, many who might have been written off being perfectly capable of playing that way. I cannot believe that any football player wants to continuously see the ball given back to the other team and then spend the next number of minutes chasing it. I'm sure our players would much rather practice all week keeping the ball and moving into space. In fact I've seen us do it and do it well. I just don't think they are asked to it enough because the manager doesn't fully believe in them and in that particular approach to the game.
The one longshot I reckon we might have is ironically Tonev.
some good points well made; if Moyes had come to us instead of Lambert I for one would have been more than happy. Betrand btw is not ours, he's Chavski's.
Quote from: mr underhill on April 25, 2014, 10:57:16 AMsome good points well made; if Moyes had come to us instead of Lambert I for one would have been more than happy. Betrand btw is not ours, he's Chavski's.Thanks for that. Maybe we will sign Bertrand in the summer though?
I still think Betrand is the better player
Quote from: SamTheMouse on April 24, 2014, 08:30:25 PMQuote from: Monty on April 24, 2014, 07:12:10 PMDisagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division? It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.Amen to that, Monty.This is one of the best posts I've seen on here in a while. Absolutely bang on.