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[Keeno]

Disagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division?

It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.

I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.

Amen to that, Monty.

This is one of the best posts I've seen on here in a while. Absolutely bang on.

[brontebilly]

Are they having a purple patch or is the system just getting them to play better? Seeing as it's gone on for pretty much the season, my guess is the latter, and this includes getting Aiden McGeady to play well - you'll agree, something of a miracle. And though they were good players anyway, they've already got more points than last season and more goals than they ever managed under Moyes. I'd have thought it almost a truism that scoring more goals gives you a better chance of doing better in a league. Once more, I don't see how it does him discredit to have made good signings.

Moyes is clearly better than MON. He uses his squad better, he makes better signings from wider away and for better money, and younger at that. He also isn't insanely addicted to the midfield-conceding nonsense of old-fashioned 4-4-2. Still, he hasn't kept with the developments of the last five years or so, and while this wasn't exposed at Everton where he had put good structures in from older days, having to start from scratch again has exposed his limitations pretty brutally. MON was outdated ten years ago, but Moyes is outdated now. Football moves very quickly, and failure to adapt is fatal.

I think your last paragraph is an determinedly lugubrious way of looking at the situation. City haven't done much wrong, nor really Chelsea, but Liverpool have won 11 in a row which is madness. As for the top four, while United, Spurs and now Arsenal have underachieved, the fact that Everton have improved on last season seems indicative in and of itself.

you make your points well and a coach ala Rodgers or Martinez is what I want at Villa next year over the typical megalomaniac British manager. But I think its a poor league this year too which needs to be taken into account. Great that Liverpool and Everton hopefully will make the Champions League but the big four are very weak imo at the moment. Last year was poor also. Man City with their resources should have walked the last two league titles imo. Normal order could well be restored during this summer's transfer window and both Everton and Liverpool might struggle with the extra European games next season.

A look at the EPL team of the year would indicate as such, there is little competition for many positions. Compare to the 08/09 season anyway when the top was very strong. Liverpool - Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Kuyt, Torres all at their peak probably. United - Ronaldo, Rooney, Berbatov, Vidic. Liverpool's back 5 is at best average Id argue. No way is Reina a worse keeper than Mignolet. Skrtel somehow getting away with umpteen penalties this season, Johnson is finished and Milner proved how raw Flanagan is a couple of weeks back. My Liverpool supporting mates suggest Sakho is the worst of the lot while Agger has little presence about him. Henderson is a good athlete and fair play to him for turning around his Liverpool career but isnt much of a footballer Id argue. Even Gerrard has been average for long stretches of the season which has been forgotten about over the last couple of months. Thought Silva exposed him badly a couple of weeks ago which was kind of glossed over, even Andy Weimann did at Anfield too. Liverpool have two outstanding forwards and Sterling in particular has caught fire in the second half of the season. Honestly think the Liverpool 08/09 side was a stronger one than this year.

I look from Newcastle down on the table this year and the top 6 in the championship could easily compete with those eleven teams. Newcastle fans hate their side and manager and are ninth. Palace with their lack of quality have comfortably stayed up. Damien Delaney is a sound lad but a midtable top division defender? Cameron Jerome? Nathan Baker?

[ktvillan]

Small steps guys.

A lot of you seem to not want Moyes because his glass ceiling is probably similar to MON's (5th/6th) due to his style of football. However I think some people are forgetting just how irrelevant we've become to many other PL sides these days, 'Villa used to have something about them' type comments are all top regular in my ear for my liking. Although they are true. We've been a bottom 6 side scraping around the 40 point mark for 3 years (4 if you include Houllier's), you can't just ignore this due to our traditions, it's where we are at this moment in time and have been for a while.

I want us to be relevant again, competing in the top half of the division and for Villa Park not to be such a piss easy ground to come to for 3 points. Moyes would make us hard to beat, improve our home record considerably and I'd be very surprised if we weren't top 8 within 2 seasons. Over a longer period of time, no he probably wouldn't be able to take us above around 6th or get us passing teams off the park. I'm not sure who some fans think we could attract in the mean time who would play such a great style and transform us from bottom 6 regulars to top 6.

We need a period of stability with a decent manager in charge, or we'll go down, that's the way we are heading. Moyes fits the bill and I can't see many other candidates in his mould, if he came in, it doesn't mean it'd be for 11 years like he spent at Everton. If our board were ambitious enough, they'd dispense of a manager when they thought he'd taken us as far as we could.

Spot on.

Sorry why small steps?  Southampton went from Championship to a good footballing side in the top 8 or 9 in less than two seasons by bringing in a decent manager.  Swansea did it in a very short space of time too.  How "relevant" were they before their promotions? Why faff about with a consolidation stage ?  Yes we look a long way off the pace now but the quality outside the top 6 or 7 really isn't that good and  it shouldn't take years to bridge the initial gap.  The players, with a few additions,  just need to be well coached and well prepared and united behind a coach with a decent football philosophy.

[Monty]

Your entirely accurate criticisms of the Liverpool defence merely highlight how effective choosing an attacking style has been. If you score three goals a game then your defence can almost be as crap as it likes. I agree Gerrard isn't all that, but I entirely disagree about Henderson - watch his close control and touches around the penalty area, you have to rub your eyes and remind yourself that the guy's name is Jordan Henderson. It's hard to believe. The stylistic change from Dalglish, after some settling in, has brought about miracles, and Everton have lifted a lid off themselves with Martinez. Moyes was fine, but never any more - Martinez at least has the potential and the method to get them somewhere.

The league has got worse as a whole, that's for sure. PSG, Monaco and Bayern especially have diluted the market for the top players, while every Premier League club other than City is prey to a club like Real Madrid. But it can't be glossed over that United have at least underachieved because of Moyes, and Everton been able to take advantage because of Martinez. The superiority of the latter over the former, at least for the moment, was frighteningly obvious last Sunday. And that's to where I think the argument comes down, and back: Moyes has been left behind even in an inferior league with the former champions. Take him out of his comfort zone and his inadequacy is horrible. I don't want that near the Villa, and it does put his achievements into perspective, while not lessening them.

PS: I agree wholeheartedly KTV. I just don't see why people continually divorce results and good football. Like I say, it must be some deep-seated Puritan mistrust of enjoyable things. I just don't get it.

[Toronto Villa]

If we got a new manager who wanted to play football on the floor it would not shock me in the least to suddenly see some of the current crop of players, many who might have been written off being perfectly capable of playing that way. I cannot believe that any football player wants to continuously see the ball given back to the other team and then spend the next number of minutes chasing it. I'm sure our players would much rather practice all week keeping the ball and moving into space. In fact I've seen us do it and do it well. I just don't think they are asked to it enough because the manager doesn't fully believe in them and in that particular approach to the game.

[brontebilly]

If we got a new manager who wanted to play football on the floor it would not shock me in the least to suddenly see some of the current crop of players, many who might have been written off being perfectly capable of playing that way. I cannot believe that any football player wants to continuously see the ball given back to the other team and then spend the next number of minutes chasing it. I'm sure our players would much rather practice all week keeping the ball and moving into space. In fact I've seen us do it and do it well. I just don't think they are asked to it enough because the manager doesn't fully believe in them and in that particular approach to the game.

Of course there are some players that would improve, Bacuna for me has a lot of potential, but others Baker, Clark, Kea, Sylla, Weimann even Gabby dont have the basic technical ability to improve. Not sure about Grant Holt, a maybe for him Rodgers made big calls when he came in first to get rid of the likes of Carroll, Adam and Downing at huge losses to the club. He tried to give Henderson the boot too. A coach from the modern ages will need to do the same at Villa Park this summer.

The one longshot I reckon we might have is ironically Tonev. Clearly has shit for brains but has good movement and his touch is good. Everything else less so

[Morpheus]

Let's say for argument sake that the club is taken over and we get a new manager in Moyes or someone else.

How many of Lambert's signings do we think are going to be part of the new dawn so to speak? Benteke, Vlaar, Guzan, Betrand and well then you begin to struggle.

So we will be in yet another transitional stage but this time with Moyes or with another good manager implementing a style of football with players purchased to fit the system rather than the opposite.

Again as stated before if given the choice would we have taken Moyes before he went to Manchester? I would hazard a very strong guess that the majority of Villa fans would have welcomed him with open arms. He hasn't become a bad manager over night and have we forgotten what he did at Everton by getting them into the top four on a limited budget.

I honestly believe he was given a poisoned chalice at Man U in that several of the players there were either going to leave at the end of the season or retire and with the daddy gone they really weren't open to new ideas from a manager who hadn't won anything.

As Roy Keane said those players should be ashamed of themselves and Moyes needed time to rid Man U of the Ferguson legacy and to put his own stamp on the club and I really do believe given that time he would have been a success at Man U.

So why not achieve that success with us. With new owners he will have more than a reasonable budget to play with and I am in no doubt that he will get us back into the top six again sooner than many would believe. Of course this is just my opinion and he could be a busted flush as several have stated but even if he just emulates the positional success in the Premiership with us as he did with Everton then that is a darn sight better than what we have been used to over the last few seasons.

[mr underhill]

some good points well made; if Moyes had come to us instead of Lambert I for one would have been more than happy. Betrand btw is not ours, he's Chavski's.

[QBVILLA]

If we got a new manager who wanted to play football on the floor it would not shock me in the least to suddenly see some of the current crop of players, many who might have been written off being perfectly capable of playing that way. I cannot believe that any football player wants to continuously see the ball given back to the other team and then spend the next number of minutes chasing it. I'm sure our players would much rather practice all week keeping the ball and moving into space. In fact I've seen us do it and do it well. I just don't think they are asked to it enough because the manager doesn't fully believe in them and in that particular approach to the game.

Good points made. With the ball being treated like a hot potato how can the likes of Westwood showcase his real abilities?

[not3bad]

The one longshot I reckon we might have is ironically Tonev.

From what I've seen of him, the same would apply to Helenius.

[Morpheus]

some good points well made; if Moyes had come to us instead of Lambert I for one would have been more than happy. Betrand btw is not ours, he's Chavski's.

Thanks for that. Maybe we will sign Bertrand in the summer though?

[supertom]

some good points well made; if Moyes had come to us instead of Lambert I for one would have been more than happy. Betrand btw is not ours, he's Chavski's.

Thanks for that. Maybe we will sign Bertrand in the summer though?

Would depend if Lamberts still here I guess. You'd think Bertrand would get a good recommendation from the squad and the remaining coaches though.

[mr underhill]

I still think Betrand is the better player

[not3bad]

I still think Betrand is the better player

Eh?

[sirlordbaltimore]

Disagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division?

It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.

I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.

Amen to that, Monty.

This is one of the best posts I've seen on here in a while. Absolutely bang on.

Yes, although i do like to see a winger bombing forward and crossing balls into the box too