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Author Topic: Aston Villa Sack Manager Ads  (Read 73841 times)

Online SamTheMouse

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #405 on: April 24, 2014, 08:30:25 PM »
Disagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division?

It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.

I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.

Amen to that, Monty.

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #406 on: April 24, 2014, 08:35:26 PM »
Totally agree, Monty.

I want us to be fun to watch.

Offline silhillvilla

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #407 on: April 24, 2014, 08:40:45 PM »
One step at a time guys. We aren't going to become good overnight.

Offline Monty

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #408 on: April 24, 2014, 08:44:27 PM »
One step at a time guys. We aren't going to become good overnight.

There is a false premise behind this, though, that in order to play good football you have to be successful first. I say that this is precisely the wrong way round. In any case, we're not asking to become Champions' League contenders - just that if we achieve our aim of solid midtable as a basis for future success, there's no reason why it can't be done entertainingly, and every reason why it shouldn't be done boringly.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 08:47:51 PM by Monty »

Offline brontebilly

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #409 on: April 24, 2014, 09:44:12 PM »
We need Lennon to jump ship so Lambert can move to Celtic.

We then need a DoF (preferably one that understands Villa and does not have a love in with previous clubs) to act as a conduit between a clueless board when it comes to football and a (new) set of very good 1st team coaches.

Oh and 5 or 6 first team players as well as the 2 newer signings (JO/LK) back to full fitness.

Not much required then.

He seems a game lad but honestly dont think Libor Kozak is anywhere near good enough for us. Maybe has developed some physical strength during his injury but his lack of mobility will hardly be improved by a broken leg. Would be stunned if he turns out a good signing for us. Lambert somehow thought signing 2 immobile beanpole strikers was a good idea last summer when our midfield and defence were utter cack and still are.

Okore certainly looked a decent player but seemed to rely on his pace a lot. Some players dont ever recover from serious injury such as Bent and Angel so hopefully wont be an issue for JO.

In terms of positions we need filling - right back, left back, left sided centre half, centre midfield playmaker, deep lying quick forwards, backup for Benteke

Only senior players under contract worth keeping - Guzan, Bacuna, Vlaar (although I'm not bothered on him), Okore, Westwood, Delph, Benteke

We will have to keep Nzogbia and Kozak until they get back fit anyway. All others can go if anyone wants them

Should be plenty of players getting the road from United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs this summer. Plus Swansea too I would think.

Offline AVH87

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #410 on: April 24, 2014, 09:51:26 PM »
Disagree Hoyle87. It's not just that his style has that glass ceiling, it's that we've had enough of this particular limited footballing style. Swansea and Southampton have managed to combine progress with a footballing identity - some would say because of it - through many divisions. Moyes' record looks good over 11 years, but how many of the last few years could actually have been better for Everton if someone more like Martinez had been in charge? It could be that Moyes actually limited them for the last few years, and who's to say in the next few years that this limiting will trickle down the league from the top six to the whole division?

It's all well and good to build foundations, but if you're building them out of mud and everyone around you is building on concrete then the foundations are themselves inadequate and restricting - look at Newcastle, who have lots of players capable of playing good stuff, especially when Cabaye was there, but are clearly constrained by Pardew's near-moronic football thinking.

I'm fed up of managers content to make us 'hard to beat' (and harder to watch), to make us 'compact' and 'well-organised', where 'all the players know their jobs' and all of those other patronising euphemisms. I'm fed up with the long ball being considered a legitimate attacking tactic, with all our attacking coming from 'pace on the wings' rather than quality through the middle. I'm fed up with players moving about as freely as if their boots were stitched into the turf, of last-minute goals conceded after 89 minutes of unsuccessful bludgeoning against a simple defensive opposition, of losing the ball from throw-ins, of dreading the weekend arriving for fear of what garbage might be hurled our way this time. If sodding Southampton can do it, then so too can we.

The point on Moyes 'limiting' Everton over the last few seasons I think is crazy talk. The reason they are doing so well this season is 90% down to the foundations Moyes built, the players who have made the difference this year are not players Martinez has bought for fees (Kone, McCarthy, Alcaraz, Joel), it's the fact that he got lucky with the loan market with Gareth Barry and Lukaku becoming available. How many summers would two players of top 4 quality be available for loan, and both end up at the same club? They weren't even in for Lukaku until the last minute when they realised he looked set to be off to WBA and hijacked the bid.

Clearly they have played a different style under Martinez, one the fans consider more attractive, but I don't put their improved results down to that, as I've said above. Let's see how Martinez does next season when Lukaku goes back and they may well struggle to keep Barry as well. He'll most likely have around 10m to spend tops (Moyes average season spend over his tenure there), and I think Martinez will struggle to come above 6th/7th (where Moyes got Everton to the vast majority of his tenure).

What I would say is, I'm not one of these fans who is massively concerned by style of football, so that clearly will affect my views in comparison to some others. I've seen Swansea a few times and at times I think they are boring, the possession stats flash up and they've had 70% of the ball, yet I've rarely seen them in the opposition's box or the goalkeeper troubled. I'd rather come 7th playing 'boring' football, than 9th watching a possession game.

Online Pete3206

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #411 on: April 24, 2014, 10:02:22 PM »
I've still yet to see who you all think is going to bring us this golden ticket to attractive, trophy winning football. We have to stop the rot first.

Offline Dave

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #412 on: April 24, 2014, 10:09:19 PM »
I've still yet to see who you all think is going to bring us this golden ticket to attractive, trophy winning football. We have to stop the rot first.
It's not really our job to find them though. There are people who are employed by the club and paid a lot of money to do just that.

Thomas Tuchel? Vincenzo Montella? Vitor Pereira? Uwe Rosler? René Girard? Somebody different?

They might be great, they might not be.

But what's the point of going out and searching for someone who you expect to be no more than average? Lambert might have been great (his record suggested that he could be) but it turns out that he's not, at least not with us. That's not a reason in itself to aim low next time.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:11:43 PM by Dave »

Offline rob_bridge

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #413 on: April 24, 2014, 10:11:53 PM »
I've still yet to see who you all think is going to bring us this golden ticket to attractive, trophy winning football. We have to stop the rot first.

I'm not disagreeing with the stopping the rot - there are different ways to doing it. Moyes bit off more than he could chew at Un-i-te-id. Not the first and won't be the last to do so.
Is Villa a wise job to take soon after? To draw a parallel - SGT took on Wolves, another not very easy job after England and didn't fair to well.

If Villa wanted Moyes (no idea if the board would) and Moyes fancied a crack (even less idea as to whether he does) then he knows he is drinking at the last chance saloon in terms of big / high profile jobs as if he fails he'll be back to Preston/Wigan/Blackpool level for good.

I suspect he will sit out for 9 months or so until the dust settles - which may correspond to Villa requiring a new hire. I suspect Lambert is safe for the summer / autumn with a couple of more wins.

Offline lovejoy

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #414 on: April 24, 2014, 10:17:38 PM »
Isn't his pay off reduced if he gets another job in the near term, unlikely we'll see him any time soon I think.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:19:49 PM by lovejoy »

Offline lovejoy

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #415 on: April 24, 2014, 10:17:50 PM »
Duplicate post.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:20:22 PM by lovejoy »

Offline Monty

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #416 on: April 24, 2014, 11:32:16 PM »
The point on Moyes 'limiting' Everton over the last few seasons I think is crazy talk. The reason they are doing so well this season is 90% down to the foundations Moyes built, the players who have made the difference this year are not players Martinez has bought for fees (Kone, McCarthy, Alcaraz, Joel), it's the fact that he got lucky with the loan market with Gareth Barry and Lukaku becoming available. How many summers would two players of top 4 quality be available for loan, and both end up at the same club? They weren't even in for Lukaku until the last minute when they realised he looked set to be off to WBA and hijacked the bid.

Clearly they have played a different style under Martinez, one the fans consider more attractive, but I don't put their improved results down to that, as I've said above. Let's see how Martinez does next season when Lukaku goes back and they may well struggle to keep Barry as well. He'll most likely have around 10m to spend tops (Moyes average season spend over his tenure there), and I think Martinez will struggle to come above 6th/7th (where Moyes got Everton to the vast majority of his tenure).

What I would say is, I'm not one of these fans who is massively concerned by style of football, so that clearly will affect my views in comparison to some others. I've seen Swansea a few times and at times I think they are boring, the possession stats flash up and they've had 70% of the ball, yet I've rarely seen them in the opposition's box or the goalkeeper troubled. I'd rather come 7th playing 'boring' football, than 9th watching a possession game.

I don't think it's such crazy talk. Everton haven't looked likely to really break that Champions' League monopoly since 2005, which was before ourselves and Man City had been taken over and Spurs were having a good old meltdown. With the league as competitive as it is now, with the amounts of money spent, Martinez looks likely to finish  above both a club who spent £100m in the summer and the club for which David Moyes has left, the former champions who are now boofing their way to a 38-point swing deficit on Everton, and still has a good chance of finishing above a team who could afford to spend £40m on a single player last summer.

Also, I wouldn't call signing two good players lucky, no more than I'd call Moyes' best signings lucky. But of those signings, look at them now - Seamus Coleman has gone from a decent plodder to this airborne Cafu impersonator. Kevin Mirallas, Steven Naismith, Aiden McGeady - these aren't players associated with the Barcelona-ish top levels of the game, yet now look totally comfortable in a style which is more flexible, more entertaining and, so far, more successful. The Everton fans don't just consider his style more entertaining, they consider it to have taken a brake off. This is the real point - however well it did, Moyes' style would never get further because it was so small-time. It imitated the way a particularly unblessed lower league team might play: organisation, rigid in attack and defence, safety-first stuff. Martinez's style is confidence-inducing, front-foot, brave football. Give me that any time.

Your Swansea point in some way proves my point, as well, that this somewhat Puritan idea of footballing style (that something fun must also be bad for you) is a totally incorrect premise. Would Swansea be anywhere like where they were if they weren't playing effective football? Their style can be boring or entertaining, but even if it is boring it's a braver way to be boring, and has a higher ceiling on what it can achieve. Nobody has yet addressed my point about Villa - that teams for whatever psychological reason always play at Villa Park as if we're a top four club, and as such we need to play the style best suited to breaking down massed defences at home. Clearly what we've been doing so far doesn't seem to have worked, and what we've been doing so far is Moyes-ball.

I happen to find one style more entertaining, but for us it would be more practical to change our style away from anything Moyes would give us and towards the passing style of his successor, and to change immediately.

Offline brontebilly

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #417 on: April 25, 2014, 12:05:02 AM »
The point on Moyes 'limiting' Everton over the last few seasons I think is crazy talk. The reason they are doing so well this season is 90% down to the foundations Moyes built, the players who have made the difference this year are not players Martinez has bought for fees (Kone, McCarthy, Alcaraz, Joel), it's the fact that he got lucky with the loan market with Gareth Barry and Lukaku becoming available. How many summers would two players of top 4 quality be available for loan, and both end up at the same club? They weren't even in for Lukaku until the last minute when they realised he looked set to be off to WBA and hijacked the bid.

Clearly they have played a different style under Martinez, one the fans consider more attractive, but I don't put their improved results down to that, as I've said above. Let's see how Martinez does next season when Lukaku goes back and they may well struggle to keep Barry as well. He'll most likely have around 10m to spend tops (Moyes average season spend over his tenure there), and I think Martinez will struggle to come above 6th/7th (where Moyes got Everton to the vast majority of his tenure).

What I would say is, I'm not one of these fans who is massively concerned by style of football, so that clearly will affect my views in comparison to some others. I've seen Swansea a few times and at times I think they are boring, the possession stats flash up and they've had 70% of the ball, yet I've rarely seen them in the opposition's box or the goalkeeper troubled. I'd rather come 7th playing 'boring' football, than 9th watching a possession game.

I don't think it's such crazy talk. Everton haven't looked likely to really break that Champions' League monopoly since 2005, which was before ourselves and Man City had been taken over and Spurs were having a good old meltdown. With the league as competitive as it is now, with the amounts of money spent, Martinez looks likely to finish  above both a club who spent £100m in the summer and the club for which David Moyes has left, the former champions who are now boofing their way to a 38-point swing deficit on Everton, and still has a good chance of finishing above a team who could afford to spend £40m on a single player last summer.

Also, I wouldn't call signing two good players lucky, no more than I'd call Moyes' best signings lucky. But of those signings, look at them now - Seamus Coleman has gone from a decent plodder to this airborne Cafu impersonator. Kevin Mirallas, Steven Naismith, Aiden McGeady - these aren't players associated with the Barcelona-ish top levels of the game, yet now look totally comfortable in a style which is more flexible, more entertaining and, so far, more successful. The Everton fans don't just consider his style more entertaining, they consider it to have taken a brake off. This is the real point - however well it did, Moyes' style would never get further because it was so small-time. It imitated the way a particularly unblessed lower league team might play: organisation, rigid in attack and defence, safety-first stuff. Martinez's style is confidence-inducing, front-foot, brave football. Give me that any time.

Your Swansea point in some way proves my point, as well, that this somewhat Puritan idea of footballing style (that something fun must also be bad for you) is a totally incorrect premise. Would Swansea be anywhere like where they were if they weren't playing effective football? Their style can be boring or entertaining, but even if it is boring it's a braver way to be boring, and has a higher ceiling on what it can achieve. Nobody has yet addressed my point about Villa - that teams for whatever psychological reason always play at Villa Park as if we're a top four club, and as such we need to play the style best suited to breaking down massed defences at home. Clearly what we've been doing so far doesn't seem to have worked, and what we've been doing so far is Moyes-ball.

I happen to find one style more entertaining, but for us it would be more practical to change our style away from anything Moyes would give us and towards the passing style of his successor, and to change immediately.

Ah now, Aiden McGeady is shit (have had the unfortunate experience of watching his depressing Ireland career over many years) and Naismith while having a purple patch is no better. Take Barry, Lukaku, Coleman and Baines out of that side and its bog standard lower mid table (our level). Martinez does seem very flexible in his tactics and play good football. But he made some exceptional signings last summer without whom they would be nowhere. Coleman has improved out of recognition but some of the others were really good players anyway.

More than a dose of revisionism has crept in about his reign at Everton I think. He is being lumped in with the MON's out there which is unfair. Moyes could be negative against big teams particularly in big Cup ties. A bit of a tactical neaderthal but it was effective and sustainable I thought. Their points tally speaks for itself over his reign, he didnt have to drastically up wages and transfer fees each year to stand still. He largely bought well, had a very committed bunch of players who on the whole gave everything for him and left the club in a monumentally better place than where he found it. Baines, Coleman, Gibson, Mirallas, Stones, Barkley - thats a good crop of young players with their best days ahead of them.

MON on the other hand left us with an overpaid, overfed, mutinous crew and promptly walked five days before the season.

All credit to Rodgers and Martinez this season, the sky big four was for all too long left saunter up to their positions in the league table for years. But serious questions have to be asked about Pellegrini, Mourinho, Wenger, Levy and Moyes about how Liverpool and Everton are in the top 4 when really they should be nowhere near it based on resources available to each club. Moyes and Villas Boas are gone. Wenger should be fired in the summer for definite. The other two if they remain potless have had disappointing seasons too and couldnt have too many complaints if they were got rid of in the summer.

Offline Monty

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #418 on: April 25, 2014, 12:14:45 AM »
Are they having a purple patch or is the system just getting them to play better? Seeing as it's gone on for pretty much the season, my guess is the latter, and this includes getting Aiden McGeady to play well - you'll agree, something of a miracle. And though they were good players anyway, they've already got more points than last season and more goals than they ever managed under Moyes. I'd have thought it almost a truism that scoring more goals gives you a better chance of doing better in a league. Once more, I don't see how it does him discredit to have made good signings.

Moyes is clearly better than MON. He uses his squad better, he makes better signings from wider away and for better money, and younger at that. He also isn't insanely addicted to the midfield-conceding nonsense of old-fashioned 4-4-2. Still, he hasn't kept with the developments of the last five years or so, and while this wasn't exposed at Everton where he had put good structures in from older days, having to start from scratch again has exposed his limitations pretty brutally. MON was outdated ten years ago, but Moyes is outdated now. Football moves very quickly, and failure to adapt is fatal.

I think your last paragraph is an determinedly lugubrious way of looking at the situation. City haven't done much wrong, nor really Chelsea, but Liverpool have won 11 in a row which is madness. As for the top four, while United, Spurs and now Arsenal have underachieved, the fact that Everton have improved on last season seems indicative in and of itself.

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Moyes sacked? Let's get him in...
« Reply #419 on: April 25, 2014, 12:24:05 AM »
The point on Moyes 'limiting' Everton over the last few seasons I think is crazy talk. The reason they are doing so well this season is 90% down to the foundations Moyes built, the players who have made the difference this year are not players Martinez has bought for fees (Kone, McCarthy, Alcaraz, Joel), it's the fact that he got lucky with the loan market with Gareth Barry and Lukaku becoming available. How many summers would two players of top 4 quality be available for loan, and both end up at the same club? They weren't even in for Lukaku until the last minute when they realised he looked set to be off to WBA and hijacked the bid.

Clearly they have played a different style under Martinez, one the fans consider more attractive, but I don't put their improved results down to that, as I've said above. Let's see how Martinez does next season when Lukaku goes back and they may well struggle to keep Barry as well. He'll most likely have around 10m to spend tops (Moyes average season spend over his tenure there), and I think Martinez will struggle to come above 6th/7th (where Moyes got Everton to the vast majority of his tenure).

What I would say is, I'm not one of these fans who is massively concerned by style of football, so that clearly will affect my views in comparison to some others. I've seen Swansea a few times and at times I think they are boring, the possession stats flash up and they've had 70% of the ball, yet I've rarely seen them in the opposition's box or the goalkeeper troubled. I'd rather come 7th playing 'boring' football, than 9th watching a possession game.

I don't think it's such crazy talk. Everton haven't looked likely to really break that Champions' League monopoly since 2005, which was before ourselves and Man City had been taken over and Spurs were having a good old meltdown. With the league as competitive as it is now, with the amounts of money spent, Martinez looks likely to finish  above both a club who spent £100m in the summer and the club for which David Moyes has left, the former champions who are now boofing their way to a 38-point swing deficit on Everton, and still has a good chance of finishing above a team who could afford to spend £40m on a single player last summer.

Also, I wouldn't call signing two good players lucky, no more than I'd call Moyes' best signings lucky. But of those signings, look at them now - Seamus Coleman has gone from a decent plodder to this airborne Cafu impersonator. Kevin Mirallas, Steven Naismith, Aiden McGeady - these aren't players associated with the Barcelona-ish top levels of the game, yet now look totally comfortable in a style which is more flexible, more entertaining and, so far, more successful. The Everton fans don't just consider his style more entertaining, they consider it to have taken a brake off. This is the real point - however well it did, Moyes' style would never get further because it was so small-time. It imitated the way a particularly unblessed lower league team might play: organisation, rigid in attack and defence, safety-first stuff. Martinez's style is confidence-inducing, front-foot, brave football. Give me that any time.

Your Swansea point in some way proves my point, as well, that this somewhat Puritan idea of footballing style (that something fun must also be bad for you) is a totally incorrect premise. Would Swansea be anywhere like where they were if they weren't playing effective football? Their style can be boring or entertaining, but even if it is boring it's a braver way to be boring, and has a higher ceiling on what it can achieve. Nobody has yet addressed my point about Villa - that teams for whatever psychological reason always play at Villa Park as if we're a top four club, and as such we need to play the style best suited to breaking down massed defences at home. Clearly what we've been doing so far doesn't seem to have worked, and what we've been doing so far is Moyes-ball.

I happen to find one style more entertaining, but for us it would be more practical to change our style away from anything Moyes would give us and towards the passing style of his successor, and to change immediately.

Ah now, Aiden McGeady is shit (have had the unfortunate experience of watching his depressing Ireland career over many years) and Naismith while having a purple patch is no better. Take Barry, Lukaku, Coleman and Baines out of that side and its bog standard lower mid table (our level). Martinez does seem very flexible in his tactics and play good football. But he made some exceptional signings last summer without whom they would be nowhere. Coleman has improved out of recognition but some of the others were really good players anyway.

More than a dose of revisionism has crept in about his reign at Everton I think. He is being lumped in with the MON's out there which is unfair. Moyes could be negative against big teams particularly in big Cup ties. A bit of a tactical neaderthal but it was effective and sustainable I thought. Their points tally speaks for itself over his reign, he didnt have to drastically up wages and transfer fees each year to stand still. He largely bought well, had a very committed bunch of players who on the whole gave everything for him and left the club in a monumentally better place than where he found it. Baines, Coleman, Gibson, Mirallas, Stones, Barkley - thats a good crop of young players with their best days ahead of them.

MON on the other hand left us with an overpaid, overfed, mutinous crew and promptly walked five days before the season.

All credit to Rodgers and Martinez this season, the sky big four was for all too long left saunter up to their positions in the league table for years. But serious questions have to be asked about Pellegrini, Mourinho, Wenger, Levy and Moyes about how Liverpool and Everton are in the top 4 when really they should be nowhere near it based on resources available to each club. Moyes and Villas Boas are gone. Wenger should be fired in the summer for definite. The other two if they remain potless have had disappointing seasons too and couldnt have too many complaints if they were got rid of in the summer.

He made some good signings from the lower leagues, bringing in the likes of Jagielka, Lescott and Cahill. 

 


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