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Author Topic: 25 years today  (Read 13215 times)

Offline PeterWithesShin

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 12:44:39 PM »

Online nodge

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2014, 12:55:00 PM »
I remember the '77 replay at Hillsborough.  I was 12 at the time and recall that we came in from the left hand side facing the pitch.  It was really packed trying to get in and I remember it because for years after my sister used to take the mickey because as we were going in I lost my bobble hat because I couldn't move my arms to grab it.  I don't think we realised how serious it was until a woman managed to get through and screamed at the stewards that people were getting crushed back there.  Eventually they let us through to walk along the front of the terrace to the middle where we couldn't believe how sparse it was.  Unbelievable how they couldn't spot the dangers and act quicker.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 01:11:46 PM »
I had the pleasure of meeting Margaret Aspinall last year. She's been through so much, yet still shows amazing strength. Thoughts are with her and all those still looking for the truth.

RIP. Justice for the 96.

Whenever they did those. 'Mum of the year' things Margaret or Ann Williams should have won it every single time.

Offline villajk

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 02:48:21 PM »
RIP.  Let's hope Justice is done.

Offline Rigadon

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 02:51:32 PM »
RIP.  I think justice is near.

Offline Vanilla

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2014, 03:26:33 PM »
I remember that day. I was playing football in the garden, and my parents called us in to show this news report (I had been a glory supporting Liverpool fan for a few years, but used go to Villa games - odd I know).

As a 12 year old, and having grew up in the 80s, there seemed to be a disaster virtually every week - Piper Alpha, Kings Cross, Lockerbie etc. Even football had been beset by them with Heysel and Bradford.

Hillsborough always shook me for seemingly how unbelievable it was that, in such an event as a football game, in a little area behind the goal, so many people died, and how they seemed stuck there, with the authorities just sitting back watching.

The perception of football fans as scum at the time caused that disaster and the following cover up.

If we had observed the disaster happening in another country, we would be wringing our hands at the typical behaviour of a country beset by corruption and stuck in a time-warp.

Hopefully, justice will be done for all those affected.


Offline garyfouroaks

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2014, 04:08:02 PM »
Hillsborough is the very stuff of how disasters happen, the ordinary going extraordinarily wrong with a backdrop of individual component parts, all likely to contribute to a disaster, but which don’t, until everything goes wrong simultaneously.

 A central paradox to the disaster is that it was a non-hooligan related disaster borne out of thirty years of hooliganism. So although we are right to clean the stain of hooliganism from those who died that day, the context of why it happened was provided by what had happened before.

Twenty five years on it is difficult to appreciate how much has changed, and how much was tolerated. Thirty years of terrace warfare had wiped thousands off gates , games were routinely the backcloth to mob battles and containment was the order of the day. The authorities clubs, and many fans had given up. Gate storming, robbery and violence were the norm, and Liverpool  were not immune. Tony Evan’s “Far Foreign lands” and Nicky Alts’ “The Mersey Boys” both offer excellent first- hand accounts of the era.

Heysel will always be the elephant in the room for Liverpool, and the FA. If a proper UK enquiry had taken place the lessons learned may have averted Hillsborough. The component parts, poor stadium choice, inadequate stadium facilities, a focus on crowd control and not safety but he police and authorities, and the way that football crowds behaved then are to be found in both disasters. But Liverpool, and the FA looked the other way, the rest is history.

The role of the Police is curiously positioned these days and has done much to hinder progress, with the Police themselves perverting the course of justice to little benefit. By the standards of the day opening a gate outside to relieve crowd pressure was not unusual, the results were. Incompetence and or negligence in doing so was always going to be hard to press.

But in the same way that “blame” associated with the gate opening is probably harsh ( by the standards of the day), what followed was far worse. Institutional perjury by an entire force had never happened before with the possible exception of the Flying Squad “fit up” scandals in the Met and West Midlands. Names and responsibility for the cover-up is far more clear cut than for the disaster itself.

How did the FA allow a showpiece event to take place at a ground without a current safety certificate? How did Sheffield Council allow any sporting event to be held there? How did the Football league allow any games at all to be played there? And in an era of IRA terrorism why was there no “disaster plan” held by the Police and Ambulance authorities for major public events?

The finest legacy for the 96 are football grounds now fit for purpose with not a single ground related death at a British football ground since. One of the further paradoxes is how the Leppings Lane End defied demolition and Anfield remains substantially unredeveloped when so much has been done elsewhere.

 Hopefully the current inquest will reveal all that needs to be revealed. The major battle, to clear the names of the 96, is all but won. Maybe the 21st Century stadia we enjoy is an unappreciated by-product of their sacrifice. .Most of the Police on duty that day were working class men and football fans themselves, they did not set out to take life willfully, or by negligence. But there is understandable and rightful anger at those who lied afterwards and I believe that is where the focus should now lie.

Offline barrysleftfoot

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2014, 04:37:38 PM »
 Very good article garyfouroaks.The big issue for me is that there was such a cover up, which has now really been admitted, and that Duckworth et al panicked and tried to hide their inadequacies by blaming the fans.

 Now i accept all that, and accept that those responsible should be held to account, with possible , if relevant, legal action taken.But when i hear justice for the 96, i'm a bit confused about what "justice" they actually want, is it prosecutions or what?

 Don't want to offend, just clarification.

Online Richard E

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2014, 04:56:18 PM »
Away supporters really were treated like garbage in those days. I remember being compulsorily route marched from Liverpool Station to Anfield hours before kick off, whether you wanted to go straight there or not and even though I hadn't gone on the football special. A Villa fan was arrested merely for stepping off the pavement. If you wanted to go into the city centre to get a drink, or a bite to eat, or meet someone who was expecting you, tough.

It also got me thinking about when Nottingham police penned hundreds in at the railway station, ticket holders included, until a train could take everyone back to New Street because the away end was allegedly already full. Blatant false imprisonment. I wasn't there that day but did anyone else get caught up in it?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 05:00:25 PM by Richard E »

Online Richard E

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2014, 05:02:23 PM »
Hillsborough is the very stuff of how disasters happen, the ordinary going extraordinarily wrong with a backdrop of individual component parts, all likely to contribute to a disaster, but which don’t, until everything goes wrong simultaneously.

 A central paradox to the disaster is that it was a non-hooligan related disaster borne out of thirty years of hooliganism. So although we are right to clean the stain of hooliganism from those who died that day, the context of why it happened was provided by what had happened before.

Twenty five years on it is difficult to appreciate how much has changed, and how much was tolerated. Thirty years of terrace warfare had wiped thousands off gates , games were routinely the backcloth to mob battles and containment was the order of the day. The authorities clubs, and many fans had given up. Gate storming, robbery and violence were the norm, and Liverpool  were not immune. Tony Evan’s “Far Foreign lands” and Nicky Alts’ “The Mersey Boys” both offer excellent first- hand accounts of the era.

Heysel will always be the elephant in the room for Liverpool, and the FA. If a proper UK enquiry had taken place the lessons learned may have averted Hillsborough. The component parts, poor stadium choice, inadequate stadium facilities, a focus on crowd control and not safety but he police and authorities, and the way that football crowds behaved then are to be found in both disasters. But Liverpool, and the FA looked the other way, the rest is history.

The role of the Police is curiously positioned these days and has done much to hinder progress, with the Police themselves perverting the course of justice to little benefit. By the standards of the day opening a gate outside to relieve crowd pressure was not unusual, the results were. Incompetence and or negligence in doing so was always going to be hard to press.

But in the same way that “blame” associated with the gate opening is probably harsh ( by the standards of the day), what followed was far worse. Institutional perjury by an entire force had never happened before with the possible exception of the Flying Squad “fit up” scandals in the Met and West Midlands. Names and responsibility for the cover-up is far more clear cut than for the disaster itself.

How did the FA allow a showpiece event to take place at a ground without a current safety certificate? How did Sheffield Council allow any sporting event to be held there? How did the Football league allow any games at all to be played there? And in an era of IRA terrorism why was there no “disaster plan” held by the Police and Ambulance authorities for major public events?

The finest legacy for the 96 are football grounds now fit for purpose with not a single ground related death at a British football ground since. One of the further paradoxes is how the Leppings Lane End defied demolition and Anfield remains substantially unredeveloped when so much has been done elsewhere.

 Hopefully the current inquest will reveal all that needs to be revealed. The major battle, to clear the names of the 96, is all but won. Maybe the 21st Century stadia we enjoy is an unappreciated by-product of their sacrifice. .Most of the Police on duty that day were working class men and football fans themselves, they did not set out to take life willfully, or by negligence. But there is understandable and rightful anger at those who lied afterwards and I believe that is where the focus should now lie.


The problem was not so much the opening of the gates as not shutting off access to the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4. If they had done that then the people coming through gate C would have been redirected to the pens on either side, where there was plenty of room.

Online Richard E

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2014, 05:07:26 PM »
Very good article garyfouroaks.The big issue for me is that there was such a cover up, which has now really been admitted, and that Duckworth et al panicked and tried to hide their inadequacies by blaming the fans.

 Now i accept all that, and accept that those responsible should be held to account, with possible , if relevant, legal action taken.But when i hear justice for the 96, i'm a bit confused about what "justice" they actually want, is it prosecutions or what?

 Don't want to offend, just clarification.

I think they want:-

1) A proper inquest that fully considers all aspects of the matter including the emergency service response and whether lives could have been saved;

2) Prosecutions where appropriate;

1) appears to be happening. We shall have to see what happens on 2). 

Offline tomd2103

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2014, 05:31:43 PM »
Most of the Police on duty that day were working class men and football fans themselves, they did not set out to take life willfully, or by negligence. But there is understandable and rightful anger at those who lied afterwards and I believe that is where the focus should now lie.

Pretty much agree with that.  You would hope that those who told those shameful lies have felt remorse and guilt about their actions over the past 25 years, but who knows. 

I remember sitting in the kitchen at home on the day it happened with my parents and my brother, listening as the reports came in on the radio.  I can quite clearly remember an emotional Jimmy Armifield on commentary saying "there's a young boy down there who won't be waking up tomorrow" and that really hitting home.  I think what also hit home for most football fans was that it could have easily been them and their family on that terrace that day.   

Offline avfc_1874

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2014, 05:56:36 PM »
I found this a good read from a viewpoint of a resident that lived close to Hillsborough on that day http://yicetor.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/hillsborough-disaster/

Offline Dave Clark Five

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2014, 06:03:35 PM »
I found this a good read from a viewpoint of a resident that lived close to Hillsborough on that day http://yicetor.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/hillsborough-disaster/

Great find. It really brings things to life, being so well written and descriptive. A good post from garyfouroaks also.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: 25 years today
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2014, 06:08:09 PM »
I was at a wedding, not a great memory for the happy couple.

 


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