Standard of player

[wookster]

Its not the just the standard of players, its also the backroom staff.  Apart from a spell at Norwich none have any Premiership experience as coaches, they have all held onto Lamberts coat tails from job to job (Cowans being the exception).

[ozzjim]

Lambert has to be judged on his signings and had got the ones this summer woefully wrong apart from Okore, but lets not re-write history here.

Guzan (Lambert signed him) is easily a top 10 in the league keeper and proves it weekly.
Lowton - is a good player and will return to form. He is learning, and needs experience round him
Vlaar - good leader, solid this term, no coincidence that when he is out we struggle
Okore - Looked a really solid player before the injury. Very unlucky to have got the injury, and will be a very good signing long term.
Westwood - I know he has had a tough time this season, but he is a good player. He keeps the ball, reads the game well and is really highly thought of.
Benteke - not much needs saying.

Beyond that, Bacuna, Bennett and Kozak are in the iffy category.

The biggest issue is that this lot need some experience heads around them to help them. In the middle of the park if you put a genuine number 10 who will come and take the ball and make you play in the opposition half, then Westwood and Benteke suddenly look very different as they are both helped no end. Another centre half comes in and the flexibility to got 3-5-2 in games is opened up. A genuine defensive midfielder comes in and covers the back 4 and the full backs are not as exposed - in the 4-3-3 a number 10 and a couple of wide players that can beat the opposition and supply the forwards and we are transformed. The problem is the likes of Tonev, Luna, KEA, Baker etc are not good enough and the injuries to the likes of Vlaar, Okore etc are killing us. We have got decent players, but they need decent players with them to bring them back up a level or 6.

[Villafirst]

The lack of basic skills is quite staggering: contolling, trapping and passing the ball to player in the same coloured shirt seems beyond our players. The amount of times we may be strung two or three passes together then lost it was beyond belief. Conference level players would be ashamed of that. Too many players are hiding and we lack any real leaders on the pitch - a leader with EXPERIENCE! So many ex-pro's, pundits etc. have cited this but stupid, pig-headed Lambert carries on in the same brainless manner!

[SamTheMouse]

Last season we had various supporters asking at times when the likes of Delph, Westwood and Lowton would be getting in the England squad. This season we have various supporters saying that the same players are not even good enough for the premiership. I'm not saying it's the same people necessarily saying these conflicting things, but it's an indication of how our perceptions of players can change dependent on how the team is doing and playing as a whole...

Not going to quote your whole post again, but it was a pretty accurate summation of my own feelings. I tend to think that many of the players that we have are currently below Premier League standard - but in spite of that there are the makings of a decent team. The problem is that for youngsters to fulfil their potential, they need someone to learn from on the pitch as well as on the training field. I maintain that two experienced, quality players in that squad could calm the younger lads down, transform performances and raise everyone's game. When Vlaar's playing, he does this effectively for the defence. We need a similar figure in midfield, and perhaps a more experienced left-back. That's all it would take, and once performances have improved and we look more like a nailed-on mid-table side, Lambert can start to build from there.

[Matt Collins]

There's a lot of hyperbole in here at the moment. If Guzan, vlaar, Delph, benteke or gabby were on the market anyone in the bottom half would love to have them. Love it. And they'd be interested in Lowton, Westwood, Weimann too.


Aston Villa: Enckelman, Mellberg, Alpay, Johnsen, De la Cruz (Hadji 60), Kinsella, Gudjonsson, Barry, Wright (Samuel 60), Crouch, Vassell (Allback 65).
Subs Not Used: Postma, Hendrie.

Look at the team below for example: DLC, kinsella, Joey gudjohnsen (we also had leonhardsen this season)

Do people seriously think the current crop are worse than some of those players?
 

[ciggiesnbeer]

Info.

Thank you for this. Great read.

[Jon Crofts]

There's a lot of hyperbole in here at the moment. If Guzan, vlaar, Delph, benteke or gabby were on the market anyone in the bottom half would love to have them. Love it. And they'd be interested in Lowton, Westwood, Weimann too.


Aston Villa: Enckelman, Mellberg, Alpay, Johnsen, De la Cruz (Hadji 60), Kinsella, Gudjonsson, Barry, Wright (Samuel 60), Crouch, Vassell (Allback 65).
Subs Not Used: Postma, Hendrie.

Look at the team below for example: DLC, kinsella, Joey gudjohnsen (we also had leonhardsen this season)

Do people seriously think the current crop are worse than some of those players?
 

I was thinking the same myself, that was the 2002/3 team by the looks of it, only 11 years ago and managed by none other than Sir Graham Taylor Mk II.  Some short memories on here, that was a far worse team than the current incumbents and Taylors transfers were mind boggling.

[eastie]

There's a lot of hyperbole in here at the moment. If Guzan, vlaar, Delph, benteke or gabby were on the market anyone in the bottom half would love to have them. Love it. And they'd be interested in Lowton, Westwood, Weimann too.


Aston Villa: Enckelman, Mellberg, Alpay, Johnsen, De la Cruz (Hadji 60), Kinsella, Gudjonsson, Barry, Wright (Samuel 60), Crouch, Vassell (Allback 65).
Subs Not Used: Postma, Hendrie.

Look at the team below for example: DLC, kinsella, Joey gudjohnsen (we also had leonhardsen this season)

Do people seriously think the current crop are worse than some of those players?
 

Guzan and benteke  are the 2 real jewels in the crown .

[supertom]

There's a lot of hyperbole in here at the moment. If Guzan, vlaar, Delph, benteke or gabby were on the market anyone in the bottom half would love to have them. Love it. And they'd be interested in Lowton, Westwood, Weimann too.


Aston Villa: Enckelman, Mellberg, Alpay, Johnsen, De la Cruz (Hadji 60), Kinsella, Gudjonsson, Barry, Wright (Samuel 60), Crouch, Vassell (Allback 65).
Subs Not Used: Postma, Hendrie.

Look at the team below for example: DLC, kinsella, Joey gudjohnsen (we also had leonhardsen this season)

Do people seriously think the current crop are worse than some of those players?
 

That's four players picked out. Arguably the major problem with Leonhardsen for example (I actually thought he did okay in his limited time here) was that he was just passed his best.
Mellberg, Johnson and Alpay are better than any CH we have now. Including Vlaar. Encks was shite to be fair.
I'd take DLC over all three left backs we have at the club for example. J'Lloyd too.
Barrys a whole other level of class over what we have in midfield. Hendrie was better than what we have in midfield. I don't have confidence any of them will play 250 top flight games and score around 30 goals, and Hendrie isn't even held in that high esteem either.

So without question I would say the squad Taylor had was a lot better than what Lambert has now. It wasn't very good either.
Will Westwood, KEA, Bacuna, even Delph all have the same sort of career that Oyvind had, Hendrie had? I don't think they will to be honest. Delph might come close in terms of appearences at this level. The rest I'm not sure. I think they're destined to drop down a level again, be it domestically or back to an inferior league. Westwood I think will be lucky if he can emulate Kinsellas club career. Vassell was twice the player Weimann will ever be to be honest.

We have had periods when we've had a lot of dross. The trouble is the ratio of dross right now is far too high. We've not got as much quality in among it to make up for that either.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think part of the problem with the young players thing isn't so much that we relied on them, or blooded them, it is that, certainly last season, we played too many of them at the same time.

It wasn't purely from choice, injury obviously played a part in it, but I look at, say, Ciaran Clark as he plays alongside Vlaar and he looks significantly more solid than he does alongside, say, Baker.

That doesn't mean that Vlaar is doing the work and Clark is standing by, watching, it also means that there is significantly less pressure placed on younger players when they are one of two or three in the team than there is when we've got almost a whole team of them.

I remember when Giggs was coming through with that whole golden generation group of players at Man United, and Ferguson was incredibly careful how he introduced him, not too much at once, easing him in, and now look, he's one of the most accomplished players in the PL and still playing at 40 (or whatever age it is).

I am not saying that any of our young kids are anything like as good as Giggs, and I am not directly comparing our situation to Man United's back then, what I mean is, throw loads of kids together at one time, and they are about as up against it as it is possible to be.

I am as scared by Baker as the next man, but I do feel sorry for him, all through great chunks of last year and this he's been stuck in with either other kids, or a makeshift defence, and it's doubly difficult to thrive in those circumstances.

Of course, although part of it is down to injuries, that is also down to those who select the players for the squad, and shape it, but it's worth bearing in mind.

[HolteEnder96]

He repeatedly calls it 'a project' and portrays this as a transition period, but surely you would buy players that would progress the football club and take us forward, and how on earth some of his signings are in an Aston Villa shirt I will never know
El Ahmadi - Not good enough
Tonev - Not good enough
Helenius - Not good enough (From the limited amount of minutes he has played)
Bacuna - Not good enough

[Dave Clark Five]

Some of the 'not good enough' players may well thrive with more experienced men around them. We have seen players in this situation before. It is crap at the moment but will be all the more enjoyable when we break out of this lull. We have grown up not to expect to win every game. In all honesty that would be boring, with all sorts jumping on the bandwagon. We are fortunate to be getting great home crowds at the moment. We have started the climb back from much lower places than this before.

[richtheholtender]

The inability to pass the football is staggering. It's absolutely awful.

Also ball control, positioning when taking or defending corners (such as how many men to leave back), keeping a ball down when shooting etc.
These are all basic skills that are drummed into kids at school.

Both of these points.

[Toronto Villa]

My guess is Dave that it's beginning to dawn on the club too that they cannot continue down this current path. I still feel that most of Lambert's signings will be fine but they need help. Proper help from players they can look up to or draw inspiration from. Throw in Benteke who needs to come back to form and Vlaar we look very different quickly. Quality not quantity is needed this January and you're right we've dug out from bigger holes in the past.

[eastie]

My guess is Dave that it's beginning to dawn on the club too that they cannot continue down this current path. I still feel that most of Lambert's signings will be fine but they need help. Proper help from players they can look up to or draw inspiration from. Throw in Benteke who needs to come back to form and Vlaar we look very different quickly. Quality not quantity is needed this January and you're right we've dug out from bigger holes in the past.

Quality not quantity - spot on .

At least 2 but preferably 3 quality proven players , even if that means loan signings.

THe window opens in a couple of days so I hope we can move quickly and not wait until the end of the month to do business.