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Author Topic: Is this what transition looks like?  (Read 104842 times)

Offline supertom

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2013, 03:31:30 PM »
Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.

I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.

I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.

Offline eastie

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 04:17:09 PM »
Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.

I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.

I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.

Well said, it could be that grealish and Carruthers although lacking in experience may provide some flair and creativity that we are clearly lacking.

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 04:23:18 PM »
I think direct "this season v last season against the same opponents" comparisons don't really tell you much - although I can see why people are interested in them.

I think you have to look at the wider picture to get a view of that. For example, I could imagine a situation whereby we'd played the first ten games of this season and done worse than last season against the same opponents, but there was sufficient (admittedly subjective) evidence that we'd started to play better football, despite worse results, and that would be more important to the way the club is moving as a whole than points on the board.

In fact, that was frequently the case last season, and is the main reason why so many of us stuck with Lambert despite runs of results that made McLeish's points return look decent - but we saw the change in the way we play, and made allowances for it.

What concerns me about much of this season so far is that that style of play we began to build up over last season is nowhere to be seen.

It is almost as if we have started to believe the press about how lethal we are on the counter attack at times. This has turned into a tendency to sit back and defend, whilst hitting speculative long balls in the hope that this will create a counter attack opportunity.

Last year we would hustle and chase and hunt the ball down when the opposition had it. In fact, we did that at Arsenal on the first game of this season, too, and look where it got us.

This season we have hardly ever done that. Not only that, but in a lot of games, we've looked like we've forgotten how to pass.

Yesterday is a good example. A point at West Ham is not bad. It isn't great, but it's not the sort of result that is ever going to get anyone sacked. I have no problems with that. We also defended quite well. I know West Ham are largely toothless, but we let them have the ball for most of the game yesterday and never really looked like we couldn't defend.

The downside was that our passing was atrocious. It would be a couple of passes at most, followed by a pointless, at best 50-50 ball. This was discussed on the post match thread, but the one time we really managed to put together a decent passing move, we almost scored.

That was the same against Man City. That first half, we were pretty much played off our own pitch. We got a great result, looking back, and the second half was much improved, but the very first time we managed to put together a passing move in that game, we scored from it.

There has been far too much of yesterday's performance this season, and I understand why people are getting annoyed about it.

Last season, we all seemed to accept that it was going to be very up and down, and was the start of a transition, and yes, we are still in a transition. The problem is, for transition to be an acceptable state, there has to be a general perception that things are moving in the right direction. What worries me is that we've not seen anything like enough of that this season.

Over the summer we didn't seem to buy players of a quality appreciably better than those we bought last season. Several players who did well last season are finding the second season much harder - Weimann, Westwood, Lowton, to name three. I don't really know what Lambert saw in our trophy signing, Kozak. I am not writing him off, but with him it is not so much a question of who we did sign, but who we didn't sign. Was Kozak really the priority? Confusing.

I think that the whole transition thing is also a matter of perception. There's a thin line between "hungry, up and coming young players, building something different to improve the club" and "buying young, hungry, cheap players to maintain our existence cheaply" (see Wigan, seasons gone), and I sense a growing feeling that, in terms of what our aims are, we're starting to be seen more as a more illustrious version of Wigan than the nascent Brummie Borussia Dortmund that some people started to see us as last year.

It is not the awful situation some seem to think it is, but I entirely understand why people worry about it, and I worry too.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 04:27:20 PM by pauliewalnuts »

Offline olaftab

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2013, 04:36:12 PM »
A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
But isn't that part of what TV was saying? - that we've done better than last season almost despite (i) other teams sussing us out and (ii) other teams having invested more aggressively
Yes I agree. My  comment was that there is no point in comparing same team results as who knows for example when we play Sunderland it may not be 6-1 but a 0-0 this time!

Online PaulWinch again

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2013, 04:39:26 PM »
I think you've summed it up pretty well there Paulie. I don't think many are saying we're in a dire situation or anything, it's more a case of our progress has stalled and we seem to have forgotten how to attack.

Offline eastie

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2013, 04:39:53 PM »
A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
But isn't that part of what TV was saying? - that we've done better than last season almost despite (i) other teams sussing us out and (ii) other teams having invested more aggressively
Yes I agree. My  comment was that there is no point in comparing same team results as who knows for example when we play Sunderland it may not be 6-1 but a 0-0 this time!

Don't be so down affers - could be 8-1 ;)

Online Dante Lavelli

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »


How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
[/quote]

I read his current contract runs until the end of next season.  I think his performance so far suggests he deserves at least that long.  The conundrum for me is that I do not think it would be healthy for the club to have a manager going into the last 12 months of his contract, yet I'm not 100% convinced he deserves an extension just yet.

Would others offer him a new contract?  If so, when?

Offline eastie

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2013, 04:48:13 PM »


How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?



He seems happy to leave contract talk aside right now and I agree- lets see where we are come may and then decide.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 04:51:21 PM by eastie »

Offline olaftab

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2013, 04:48:17 PM »
Don't be so down affers - could be 8-1 ;)
I think you are wrong. With our recent clean sheet habit bedding in I can't see them getting 1!

Online Ian.

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2013, 04:55:42 PM »

I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.

How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
In my eyes we have made progress so he is doing a good job under extremely difficult circumstances. If we have still made even the slightest of improvement by the end of this season then great. How long? I would love to say a minimum of 4-5 years and see progress each year.

Football has changed so much of late, probably not for the better. Unless you have someone running the show who has a bottomless pit of money to throw around competing at the very top will not happen again.

Offline eastie

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2013, 05:06:29 PM »
I guess a lot depends on what Randy's expectations for the club are ?
Has lamberts remit been to keep us in the premier league , in which case he has succeeded, or does randy feel he has given him the finances to comfortably finish in midtable in which case the jury is still out and we will need to see where we are in may.

Offline garyshawsknee

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2013, 05:10:00 PM »
You're right eastie, how much cost cutting does it take for us to get back to an even keel, especially with the mammoth new T.V deal ?

Offline Matt Collins

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2013, 05:20:07 PM »
Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.

I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.

I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.

Well said, it could be that grealish and Carruthers although lacking in experience may provide some flair and creativity that we are clearly lacking.

Without being harsh on either, Carruthers was an unused sub and Grealish taken off at half time yday. Hardly demanding of a premier league start.

Would love it if Gardner could come back and be the strong, box to box, composed central midfielder we need. But I can't really see that happening this season, based on what we've seen thus far. I think Westwood can do better, but ultimately we need a better player in there than we have in the squad at the moment.


Offline eastie

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2013, 05:25:38 PM »
When Carruthers played a cameo role a couple of years back he was direct , skillful and ran at the Liverpool defence with pace - impressed me with his confidence to take defenders on - I'm not sure why lambert didnt use him last season as he may have offered  something going forward.

Online SamTheMouse

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Re: Is this what transition looks like?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2013, 05:28:43 PM »
If we're talking purely in terms of statistics and results, then we look to be improving and Lambert isn't doing badly at all. I certainly don't think there should be any questions over his job security at this stage. But looking beyond the numbers, the thing that's worrying me most is the style of play. We have a pretty settled formation now - a 4-5-1 evolving to a 4-3-3. And that's fine, it's a modern set-up and many of the best teams play that way. The problem is, whereas those other sides seek to dominate possession, by flooding the midfield and building from there, we very rarely control the centre of the pitch.

For some reason - possibly because of the Dortmund connection - I had expected Lambert to send his side out to get the ball down, keep it and play a controlled game. Whereas what we've ended up with looks much more like the sort of sitting back, soaking-up opposition pressure and going direct to the target man style of play that we saw under MON, and we all know the limitations of that approach. I'm not quite sure how we've ended up like that, because I still have a suspicion that Lambert is aiming for something a bit more 21st century, as evidenced by the performances at the back end of last season. Perhaps it's the manager's solution to for reducing the number of goals we concede, but for whatever reason, there seems to have been a deliberate decision to revert to a more agricultural style. I find that a bit dispiriting. I'd like to see a Villa side that makes an effort to play a more cultured game.

I'd love to think that's Lambert's conclusion too, but his decision to splash out 7 million quid on a back-up target man with limited technique and even more limited mobility suggests it probably isn't.

 


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