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Author Topic: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On  (Read 11445 times)

Offline curiousorange

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2013, 08:34:38 PM »
What's always impressed me is Taylor's restraint. If it were me, I wouldn't have been able to form actual words, let alone swear so little.

The trouble is that by making him little better than a cartoon, most fans have the view that Taylor was a massive fool. Personally, I do think England had enough talent to do better but I don't think that's remotely Taylor's doing entirely. Many have raised good points in the discussion above, but one factor that seems to have got lost in the story is that England ran Holland, between a European Championship semi and World Cup quarter final, close enough in the group to make it interesting until the final night. Add to this probably the best team Norway will ever have and there was little room for failure.

It's actually fairly rare these days for England to have such a tricky qualification group. By and large, we've been pretty fortunate to only have to worry about Poland, Turkey, Montenegro et al, with the odd Germany and Italy thrown in every decade or so.

Offline Louzie0

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2013, 09:59:28 PM »
Agree with the poster who said that Sir Graham should not have left us; I wish he hadn't we were doing so well, but I understand why he did.

The turnip thing is easily the worst thing about a man who was England manager ever printed.
Tell me worse, without quoting headlines about, 'he doesn't know what he's doing'.  Everybody's had that. The turnip face thing was absolutely personal and I don't think they have done it again.
 

Online Monty

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2013, 10:10:23 PM »
found it

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/jul/31/newsstory.sport1


I remember it because I stumbled onto it after reading alot of those "on second thoughts" articles.
There was a really good one on that famous rapper John Barnes.

That is a travesty of a paragraph. Firstly, he treats Sid's name as if it's a punchline, which is not just disrespectful, it's contrary to the facts of reality. Secondly, he mentions that he was 32 years old, but don't mention how brilliant Sid had been in those few seasons and that 32 isn't that old now, and it wasn't that old then, especially considering the professionalism of Sid, and the shape he was in. Thirdly, he says that Sid hadn't played for England for half a decade, but neglected to mention that this was a disgrace, and the equivalent of how Scholes was eased out a decade later - we English, often, just don't get that kind of player.

Finally, in the next paragraph, he mentions how it was a gutsy and possibly even correct decision, but says it precipitated other bizarre decisions, which he then lists - well, why not mention one of them, then? That little paragraph is microcosm of the English media's attitude to Villa, to deep lying playmakers and to facts - namely, dismissive.

Online Nev

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2013, 10:24:06 PM »
In related news Paul Gascoigne is now on Twitter. That'l go well, I'm sure.

I remember Sir Graham being one of the first to raise concern about his "re-fuelling" habits. It may have been from a sporting and fitness perspective but it was fairly prescient.

Offline danno

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2013, 10:31:40 PM »
found it

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/jul/31/newsstory.sport1


I remember it because I stumbled onto it after reading alot of those "on second thoughts" articles.
There was a really good one on that famous rapper John Barnes.

That is a travesty of a paragraph. Firstly, he treats Sid's name as if it's a punchline, which is not just disrespectful, it's contrary to the facts of reality. Secondly, he mentions that he was 32 years old, but don't mention how brilliant Sid had been in those few seasons and that 32 isn't that old now, and it wasn't that old then, especially considering the professionalism of Sid, and the shape he was in. Thirdly, he says that Sid hadn't played for England for half a decade, but neglected to mention that this was a disgrace, and the equivalent of how Scholes was eased out a decade later - we English, often, just don't get that kind of player.

Finally, in the next paragraph, he mentions how it was a gutsy and possibly even correct decision, but says it precipitated other bizarre decisions, which he then lists - well, why not mention one of them, then? That little paragraph is microcosm of the English media's attitude to Villa, to deep lying playmakers and to facts - namely, dismissive.

Its bonkers, I have heard other people dismiss SGT with lines like "he was an England manager who dropped Gazza
for Gordon Cowans" before, but this guy acknowledges it had a positive outcome then labels it as a blunder.

Online Monty

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2013, 10:35:28 PM »
And here's a fact which illustrates that old Edison line about 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration: Sid was better, more consistently over the course of his entire career than Gazza. And won bigger prizes.

Offline Colin B

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2013, 10:44:20 PM »
Just shows what a over inflated sense of their own self importance the London press have always had of themselves and has been one of the unfortunate by products of Sky getting the premiership deal in 1992

Offline richardhubbard

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2013, 10:58:42 PM »
Can you imagine if he had stayed.

We may have gone and been a real contender in the 90's and whole united dominance thing may not have occured


Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2013, 11:06:26 PM »
What's always impressed me is Taylor's restraint. If it were me, I wouldn't have been able to form actual words, let alone swear so little.

The trouble is that by making him little better than a cartoon, most fans have the view that Taylor was a massive fool. Personally, I do think England had enough talent to do better but I don't think that's remotely Taylor's doing entirely. Many have raised good points in the discussion above, but one factor that seems to have got lost in the story is that England ran Holland, between a European Championship semi and World Cup quarter final, close enough in the group to make it interesting until the final night. Add to this probably the best team Norway will ever have and there was little room for failure.

It's actually fairly rare these days for England to have such a tricky qualification group. By and large, we've been pretty fortunate to only have to worry about Poland, Turkey, Montenegro et al, with the odd Germany and Italy thrown in every decade or so.

Yep that's the thing. Imagine England gets drawn with Holland in the next euros group, would anyone really expect England to win the group given how sh*t hot Holland usually are in qualification. Plus you had norway and Poland in that group aswell who have been difficult opponents for England down the years.

Offline eamonn

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2013, 12:19:31 AM »

What probably amused me more from looking at that campaign was how on earth England actually fell behind after 7 seconds or something to San Marino?! When you watch England play the minnows now they barely even cross the halfway line so that just amuses me a fair bit,dunno how much footage of that game is on there.

The documentary ends showing the San Marino goal. I'm not sure how much to believe the film-maker's assertion that he felt bad for Graham when the whole thing was edited to make him look a divvy.

Offline Damo70

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2013, 08:23:07 AM »
Interesting that the other five examples in that piece were all 'fatal' mistakes for the team whereas we got a point from a tricky away game and qualified for the Euros. The national press never did like Sid because he wasn't Glenn Hoddle. He was a sort of Glenn Hoddle. Except Sid could head a ball, tackle and had  League Championship and European Cup winners medals.

Offline Dr Butler

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2013, 08:28:03 AM »
Interesting that the other five examples in that piece were all 'fatal' mistakes for the team whereas we got a point from a tricky away game and qualified for the Euros. The national press never did like Sid because he wasn't Glenn Hoddle. He was a sort of Glenn Hoddle. Except Sid could head a ball, tackle and had  League Championship and European Cup winners medals.

I love this... :)

Offline LeeB

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2013, 08:33:37 AM »
And here's a fact which illustrates that old Edison line about 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration: Sid was better, more consistently over the course of his entire career than Gazza. And won bigger prizes.

I put this to Sid once directly. I asked him how he felt about the media coverage of it, given he was a better player than Gascoigne, at which point he laughed at me and told me he wasn't fit to lace Gazza's boots.

I guess that's a measure of the class and humility of the man.

Offline Dave

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2013, 10:32:50 AM »
The majority of the stick Dunga got was because he somehow managed to convert the most flamboyant team on the planet into Scotland.
Surely the principle remains the same though?

Great though he was for us, and despite lots of the criticisms being overblown (that daft Guardian article for example) it would still be difficult to describe Tayor's time with England as a success. So I don't really feel there is much difference between the Brazilian media going after an unsuccessful manager and the English media going after an unsuccessful manager.

The point still remains that the press in other countries (even those who are really quite successful) are every bit as vindictive and vitriolic as they are here, which is really the only point I was making.

Offline TheTimVilla

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Re: That TV Programme And SGT's Last Stand With Ingerland - 20 Years On
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2013, 10:40:19 AM »
There was an interview with SGT in yesterday's Telegraph and he said that The Sun editor (was it Kelvin Mackenzie?) had told him to lighten up about being called a turnip, it was just a bit of fun. SGT said that this 'bit of fun' had two drunk Brentford fans chuck their full pint glasses at him, at Griffin Park, and would have got nastier if security hadn't stepped in.

 


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