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Author Topic: Our youth players..  (Read 12646 times)

Offline ktvillan

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2013, 01:56:27 PM »
Derrick Williams perhaps?

He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.

Baker's injuries are likely to be concussions with the way he keeps putting his head into places where others are kicking.

I've thought for years that we don't get enough of our kids in decent season-long, playing most games, type of loans. Is that because we've been holding onto them (probably yes in recent years with such a small squad) or is it because clubs aren't particularly interested in some of them? For how well heralded our youth system is, their doesn't tend to be many individuals talents. Weimann's probably the only one of the recent batch. Our successes at youth levels tend to be because we're good at putting teams together at that level. I really hope we can raise the standard of individual talents as well building the teams and that we develop them ready for 1st team football by getting them one or two season long loans where they're playing regularly.

I've been saying for a long time that maybe the emphasis is wrong in our youth set up, too much stress on producing good youth teams that win trophies and not enough on developing top, mentally strong  individual players with great technique.   I'm not sure Southampton have won many youth competitions but they have managed to produce much better individual players over the last few years.

I don't think that's the case.  Our problem for a long time has been that our youth teams have been setup to play in a specific way, right the way up to the reserves, but our first team hasn't played that type of football before, so they come through and look lost.  We've had a massive disconnect between the first team and the club for a while, I think Lambert has us playing football more suited to them now though, so I'm optimistic that our young prospects will have a better time of it from here on.

A consistent approach from top to bottom makes sense, but for me genuinely good players with mental strength and sound technique should be able to adapt to any system and not look lost.   

Offline not3bad

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2013, 02:00:11 PM »
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.

It's all very well saying that but how would we improve the situation?

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2013, 02:27:59 PM »
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.

that's the problem. Many of the players are brought through out of neccessity as opposed to strictly on merit. if we were a league one club then that's a different story. You have to do it out of neccessity. As a PL club only the very best should make it through at this level. It is up to the player to prove he deserves to beat out an established first team player to that spot. For too long we have talked up the young kids for them then to not sustain their development. I believe Lambert will be trying to change that. It should be hard work breaking through.

Offline N'ZMAV

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2013, 02:42:24 PM »
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.

It's all very well saying that but how would we improve the situation?
Not my area, I'm afraid. There are people qualified to sort that out 8)

Offline paul_e

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2013, 03:05:43 PM »
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.

It's all very well saying that but how would we improve the situation?
Not my area, I'm afraid. There are people qualified to sort that out 8)

There's a whole heap of room between top drawer and average.  Solid premier league player being the target.  If we can get 1 player a season who comes through as a viable squad option we're ahead of the game, keep them all in the squad and after 10 years the best part of half your squad is home grown players who are good enough to be part of the squad and your spending on transfer fees can be a lot more focused.

Barcelona serve as a great example of why joined up coaching at all levels is the key to this conveyer belt approach (let the top drawer take care of itself to an extent).  Because they have a club ethos and appoint staff at all levels to buy into that players are all ready to come in and perform.  The vast majority are from within a small region of spain, there isn't likely to be a genetic reason for that much talent in a small area so you have to credit the coaching and scouting teams.  Once you accept that anyone outside the top 50 or so players in the world are largely where they are due to attitude and coaching as much as skill then you can start to build around training players from as early as possible to play in a way that you want them to play.  Get that right as a club and, like Man U in recent years, you can bring through players who would be considered average at most clubs, but are part of a successful premier league winning squad on a consistent basis.

Offline ADVILLAFAN

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2013, 03:12:38 PM »
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.

that's the problem. Many of the players are brought through out of neccessity as opposed to strictly on merit. if we were a league one club then that's a different story. You have to do it out of neccessity. As a PL club only the very best should make it through at this level. It is up to the player to prove he deserves to beat out an established first team player to that spot. For too long we have talked up the young kids for them then to not sustain their development. I believe Lambert will be trying to change that. It should be hard work breaking through.

I'm sure I read that we take on far less kids than most other Premier League teams, only taking on the brightest prospects. Most PL clubs just take on and then discard (for want of a better word) loads of youngsters.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2013, 03:44:12 PM »
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.

that's the problem. Many of the players are brought through out of neccessity as opposed to strictly on merit. if we were a league one club then that's a different story. You have to do it out of neccessity. As a PL club only the very best should make it through at this level. It is up to the player to prove he deserves to beat out an established first team player to that spot. For too long we have talked up the young kids for them then to not sustain their development. I believe Lambert will be trying to change that. It should be hard work breaking through.

I'm sure I read that we take on far less kids than most other Premier League teams, only taking on the brightest prospects. Most PL clubs just take on and then discard (for want of a better word) loads of youngsters.

which if true is even worse considering how few actually make it at the club

Offline Dante Lavelli

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2013, 04:24:16 PM »
With reference to paul-e's conveyour belt comment above, without too much grey matter I can think of the following players who have through the ranks (to some extent) since 2005 (the year listed for Gabby's debut on wiki):

1. Gabby (unnecessary player purchased - Harewood?)
2. Cahill (Zat Knight?)
3. Ridgwell (Shorey?)
4. S. Moore (Bowery?)
5. Guzan (Given?)
6. Weimann (Nzogbia? - bit harsh)
7. Baker
8. Clark
9. C Gardner (Sidwell?)

That's not a bad list for 8-years work as they're all still playing PL football for us and other established clubs.  Arguably they could all still be with us if we'd previously had managers who were more prepared to blood youngsters.

Whilst that is a pretty simplistic analysis it suggests that we're not far off, especially if the quality improves as the benefit of the training complex and some sort of continuity/combined thinking occurs at the club.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2013, 04:41:00 PM »
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.

Offline ADVILLAFAN

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2013, 04:56:40 PM »
I'd add:-

Davis (Southampton)
Whittingham (Cardiff City)
Troy Deeney (Watford)
DJ Campbell (??)
Lichaj (Nottingham Forest)

Campbell and Deeney may have picked up more from other academies than us though.

Offline Dante Lavelli

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2013, 05:00:17 PM »
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.

Do you think 7 premiership quality players in 8 years is crap?  Of course the quality could be better but I wouldn't call it crap.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2013, 05:03:43 PM »
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.

Do you think 7 premiership quality players in 8 years is crap?  Of course the quality could be better but I wouldn't call it crap.

I do. Especially when you consider from that list only Gabby and Cahill are proven quality at that level. Weimann has only done it for one full year. All the others are remarkably average or with some the jury is still out as to whether they will actually make it.

Online Clampy

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2013, 05:20:41 PM »
I do like the look of Donacien from what i've seen of him. He'll be ok i reckon.

Offline eastie

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2013, 05:23:39 PM »
I do like the look of Donacien from what i've seen of him. He'll be ok i reckon.

Too soon to tell, we have had players down the years who looked the part in youth team matches but faded as they developed and fell by the wayside- if we get 3 or 4 of the many promising youngsters to develop into the first team then that will be excellent.

Offline supertom

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Re: Our youth players..
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2013, 05:33:59 PM »
The best lot from our academy (whether here from very young or poached from others like Ridgewell) over the years are probably the lot that O Leary broke through. Whether it was for want of better players or not, he still gave a lot of players their debuts and a good crack at the first team. I think getting thrown in early, and put in and out the team has helped them stay at a good level since.
I'm think of Gabby, Luke Moore, Whitts (he's well overdue a return to the Prem), Davis, Ridgewell, Cahill, Craig Gardner.
Because O Leary broke them in, it's benefited them in their careers over the years, whether they remained here that long or not.

O Neill didn't do enough. Who did he break through? Delfouneso. Osbourne. They're not as good as their slightly older counterparts. His perogative was always to sign older, more established players on high wages for silly fees. I mean Harewood and Heskey? Would we not have got more goals showing more faith in Luke Moore? Later Fonzie perhaps and giving Andreas his debut sooner? Probably.
Sidwell in midfield. I'm sure we'd have got just as much from Craig Gardner, Steve Davis.

Lets not even start the Cahill debate again. I mean some of the center halves we've signed have been very average. Cahill now plays for Chelsea. Even Ridgewell is pretty reliable now. I believe had O Neill stayed in charge, Clark and Baker wouldn't be in the first 18. I know we've all debated their quality endlessly, but had they been eased in a little better, earlier, with more sensible management, they might have been better now.

I think this is why we'll be better set up to get more out of our academy with Lambert here. Perhaps once he's got his squad as he wants it and we're a bit more settled, higher up the league, he'll start easing in our 17-20 year old young players. The odd 20 mins here and there in the league. The odd league cup game. A few months out on loan when we've got no fitness concerns and they might not figure. Send them out to places with a similar ethos to ourselves, and where they'll be likely to feature regularly.

I personally don't think enough was done to help the likes of Bannan, Albrighton etc when they first got to pro terms. The one player I think O Neill just about did alright by was Fonzy, and even then he should have done more. As such I think in some cases, players are hitting 23-24 now, and they're not up to scratch. A bit more experience earlier to help their development, and more game time on loan and they might have been better for it. Whether or not the current youth generation, with all it's buzz, the likes of Grealish, Robinson etc make it remains to be seen. We need to give them their chance though. We need them to be playing in proper matches. There's no good leaving them in the reserves until they're 21 and if they're lucky having 20 games on loan somewhere at some point.

I believe it's probably in part why despite us having a good amount of young players in the 21-25 age range when Lambert came on board, he went out and bought Westwood, Lowton, Bennett from lower leagues. They'd all played a lot of matches despite they're age. Even Bowery has played something nearing 100 games now (including us). We've relied on Baker a lot this season despite him not featuring too much for us previously. O Neill seemed to rate Clark as a potentially great defender in the making but never really played him. He was young, but he could have been eased in. We were a top 6 side back then. We were quite good. How hard would it have been to give him 30 minutes in a game we're 2-0 up say?

A lot of people here over the years have been very excited about certain players on the cusp of the seniors. People raved about Bannan. They raved about Albrighton, the Moores, Fonzie. They weren't handled well enough and things in most cases fizzled out. In an ideal world, all our young starlets would get the Agbonlahor start. I mean before him and since there have been far more naturally gifted players than him but he's been a regular pretty much since the tail end of O Leary's reign, because we played him, because we let him develop with us, and because we didn't just give up on him during the quiet patches.
This season is key. I think it may be too late for Bannan. Lichaj has gone. I think Fonzy will go too. Alby is on last chance saloon now. But for the group who are around the 20 mark, who could be good enough, we need to get them featuring a little more. It's a key season for guys like Johnson, Gary Gardner etc. Baker and Clark will hopefully kick up a level, or we have to look to whos working up behind them in the youths. Cut out silly errors in both cases, and they'll improve a hell of a lot right there. That shouldn't be difficult.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 05:37:43 PM by supertom »

 


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