Whats happened to the width?

[paulcomben]

Good subject. We must use the wings. Lambo prefers the diamond - making 2 passes in a crowded midfield then losing the ball.

[tolstoy08]

I said on the match thread, in the system we play the fullbacks have to offer a lot of attacking threat which they aren't at the moment.

I agree. Although defensively we seemed to deal with it pretty well, I thought it was noticeable how far up the pitch Riise was for most of the game on Saturday. He seemed to have instructions to pressure Lowton and stretch the game where possible. I can't think of many occasions where that was true of our full-backs, which was a real pity.

[Mister E]

For pressing fullbacks to work well as occasional wingers, the central midfielders need to be mobile, quick and dominant.

I'm in favour of atacking fullbacks but I think we need to have three strong CMF in the side  - KEA, Delph and Herd - and then 2 + 1 ahead of them (Weimann, Holman would be my supporting 2; take your pick from Bent, Benteke and Gabby as the man up top).

I'd also have Albie and Carruthers on the bench to add the width if we need to change to approach.

[Monty]

Just posted this in entirely the wrong thread:

I think it's time to admit something of a temporary defeat in his insisting on playing two strikers. It's bold, it's adventurous, and he's attempting it in a way which isn't boofy. The problem is it's an incredibly difficult system to pull off: the narrow four in midfield is designed to counter two- and three-man midfields and keep possession, but without natural width the full backs are asked to do a hell of a lot against at least two opponents on each flank. If the fullbacks can't help you out then, your play will become squeezed and narrow, and defending is all about trying to keep the opposition narrow. Another solution is to try and have the forwards move intelligently and alternately into wide areas, but seeing as we don't have Barrios and Lewandowski that solution is somewhat unrealistic.

The way to go now is clearly a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 approach, and I think Benteke has to be that lone striker. Gabby could be an option for a wide forward spot (he's always better when facing goal and running in on the diagonal), and Bent as super-sub, but we need everyone to contribute and we need a balance of numbers in midfield and wider options  to stretch the play a bit. I'm not necessarily talking about out-and-out wingers a la MON-ball, but just someone to give us a few more options to stretch the play a bit.

[Tuscans]

Man.Utd now playing the same formation with diamond midfield and as much as their full backs get forward its not working. Even the commentators have said how narrow they look and not sure the front men can receive all the options of support playing that way

[tomd2103]

I think its obvious to everyone that all our forwards need good supply as none of them are players who come deep, play off the striker or are in the mould of a DiCanio, Zola, Le Tiss etc. So they rely on accurate slide rule passes and crosses basically, neither of which they receive.

He's played N'Zogbia, he's played Albrighton...their games are based on hugging the touch line and getting balls into the box...Ireland and Holman like to stay inside and rarely put a cross of telling nature in. Lowton with all credit has at times got forward enough but his crossing is hit and hope IMO.

Maybe the game on Tuesday is a chance to mix it up and try playing with two widemen.

My team and formation would be....



                                                          Given

              Lowton               Vlaar                           Baker            Bennett

   
     
                                                       Westwood

              Albrighton                                                                   N'Zogbia

                                                         Ireland

                               
                                     Bent                                  Benteke



Subs. Guzan
          Lichaj
          Clarke
          Holman
          Bannan
          Agbonlahor
          Weimann

See how it goes and make a decision for the Norwich game.

We would get absolutely destroyed in central midfield playing that formation and with that personnel.  The problem playing a traditional 4-4-2 is that it will often leave you outnumbered in central midfield as most teams now play with three in there.  I still think that 3-5-2 might suit us, but also agree with Monty's earlier comments about a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 with Benteke as the lone striker.   

[tolstoy08]

Man.Utd now playing the same formation with diamond midfield and as much as their full backs get forward its not working. Even the commentators have said how narrow they look and not sure the front men can receive all the options of support playing that way

There was an article about this in the Graun earlier this week, where Ferguson was talking about having to choose between playing with wingers and the diamond shape: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/22/manchester-united-alex-ferguson-diamond-formation

With wide players as fast and as good as they have, I'm not sure why you would choose to play with such a narrow formation. It seems a much easier system to defend against as much of the play is 'in front of you' and in a restricted area. It strikes me that teams who make this formation work are those that have really exceptional players in the centre of midfield, an area which seems to be a major weakness for us at the moment. Mind you, I suppose without Downing & Young, we're not exactly strong on the wings either, so maybe Lambert feels this shape is the least worst option.

[Monty]

My view is that, to play the diamond, you need two David Villa types up front: strikers whose off-the-ball work is best when drifting into wide areas. You need that ability to stretch opposition defences so that you can create spaces in the centre, even if you're not doing much crossing, and both forwards need to be able to do it so as to keep the options as fluid and dynamic as possible.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I believe Bent, Gabby and especially Benteke are crying out for a wing man to stick balls in the 6 yard box. Bent loved having Young and Downing supplying him from out wide, and low and behold he scored 1 in every 2 for us. Instead our narrow diamond midfield keep going side to side, back, and back again desperately seeking a release out wide that just never comes, neither does decent supply to any of our frontmen.

Young and Downing only supplied Bent with 5 goals that season so I don't really think it's the benchmark we should use to measure. I agree about the lack of decent supply to any of our frontmen. Gabby seems to be the only player that can deliver that service from the wing (or any where else for that matter).

The big issue for me at the moment is that whilst I think possession wise we've improved, there still lacks a purpose to our build up. One thing about Houlier, he knew exactly what type of ball Bent liked and thrived on.

[badluckeric(gates)]

Lambert said at a press conference early on when asked about this that it was old fashioned to play with width and all the best teams are now playing it down the middle.
So whether we agree or not it seems like thats the way its going to be.

[Brend'Watkins]

Lambert said at a press conference early on when asked about this that it was old fashioned to play with width and all the best teams are now playing it down the middle.
So whether we agree or not it seems like thats the way its going to be.

Which is fine if you succeed in playing it effectively through the middle.  Taking Saturday's showing as an example we didn't to any great effect.  We also seemed to be caught out a fair bit defensively due to lack of it too.

[supertom]

I hope someone lets PL know that we're a long way from being one of the best teams. I think there's promise in Lowton and Bennett but we need top quality (now) fullbacks if he's gonna play this sort of narrow mid. Good in attack, great engines and the ability to cover the back well too. They're not there yet, certainly not consistently.

The problem too is, if we wanted to play with a bit more width, we don't really have the players for that either. Albrighton is championship level. N'Zogbia has never been the sort of winger to take it down the wing and deliver balls in. He's always been known as a selfish player, head down. He's preference is also to play right side and cut in, so that's not width. That's of course before you take into account how piss poor he's been anyway. Carruthers has something about him but is still an unknown quantity.
Gabby's the only half decent wide man we have. When he's on form hes actually quite effective, but again, his form is so erratic.

[ktvillan]

Lambert said at a press conference early on when asked about this that it was old fashioned to play with width and all the best teams are now playing it down the middle.
So whether we agree or not it seems like thats the way its going to be.

Problem for PL is that the "best" teams have the players to play that system effectively. There is little evidence to suggest that we do, unless he just hasn't found the right combination yet.   Given the lack of time to get things right in this league, it's sometimes better in the short term to adopt a system to suit the players available rather than try to get the players to adapt to a system they aren't familiar with and maybe don't have the skills for. 

[rutski]

I think its obvious to everyone that all our forwards need good supply as none of them are players who come deep, play off the striker or are in the mould of a DiCanio, Zola, Le Tiss etc. So they rely on accurate slide rule passes and crosses basically, neither of which they receive.

He's played N'Zogbia, he's played Albrighton...their games are based on hugging the touch line and getting balls into the box...Ireland and Holman like to stay inside and rarely put a cross of telling nature in. Lowton with all credit has at times got forward enough but his crossing is hit and hope IMO.

Maybe the game on Tuesday is a chance to mix it up and try playing with two widemen.

My team and formation would be....



                                                          Given

              Lowton               Vlaar                           Baker            Bennett

   
     
                                                       Westwood

              Albrighton                                                                   N'Zogbia

                                                         Ireland

                               
                                     Bent                                  Benteke



Subs. Guzan
          Lichaj
          Clarke
          Holman
          Bannan
          Agbonlahor
          Weimann

See how it goes and make a decision for the Norwich game.

We would get absolutely destroyed in central midfield playing that formation and with that personnel.  The problem playing a traditional 4-4-2 is that it will often leave you outnumbered in central midfield as most teams now play with three in there.  I still think that 3-5-2 might suit us, but also agree with Monty's earlier comments about a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 with Benteke as the lone striker.   

i think tuscans is taking the piss a bit, he can see the naivety and absurdity in his formation there, he is just joking really, he was going to put warnock in there too but he has left. he is just joking, stop taking him seriously you lot!!!

[Tuscans]

I think its obvious to everyone that all our forwards need good supply as none of them are players who come deep, play off the striker or are in the mould of a DiCanio, Zola, Le Tiss etc. So they rely on accurate slide rule passes and crosses basically, neither of which they receive.

He's played N'Zogbia, he's played Albrighton...their games are based on hugging the touch line and getting balls into the box...Ireland and Holman like to stay inside and rarely put a cross of telling nature in. Lowton with all credit has at times got forward enough but his crossing is hit and hope IMO.

Maybe the game on Tuesday is a chance to mix it up and try playing with two widemen.

My team and formation would be....



                                                          Given

              Lowton               Vlaar                           Baker            Bennett

   
     
                                                       Westwood

              Albrighton                                                                   N'Zogbia

                                                         Ireland

                               
                                     Bent                                  Benteke



Subs. Guzan
          Lichaj
          Clarke
          Holman
          Bannan
          Agbonlahor
          Weimann

See how it goes and make a decision for the Norwich game.

We would get absolutely destroyed in central midfield playing that formation and with that personnel.  The problem playing a traditional 4-4-2 is that it will often leave you outnumbered in central midfield as most teams now play with three in there.  I still think that 3-5-2 might suit us, but also agree with Monty's earlier comments about a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 with Benteke as the lone striker.   

i think tuscans is taking the piss a bit, he can see the naivety and absurdity in his formation there, he is just joking really, he was going to put warnock in there too but he has left. he is just joking, stop taking him seriously you lot!!!

Yea that was my "sarcastic side" ...like really, Westwood AND Ireland in midfield....AS IF!!!