More than just one game

[villa `cross the mersey]

The only bit I disagree with is with Given being dropped for poor performance, I just don't think that's the case and I think it belittles the quality of the performances from Guzan since.  Guzan got a start int he cup and played well enough to earn the place for the Newcastle game.  He then played superbly and has now followed it up with another superb performance.  The emphasis has got to  be on if you play well enough you'll get game time, not if you play badly you get dropped.

I know it's not easy to apply that for goalkeepers who tend to only get the odd chance to impress when they're out of the team but Guzan left before because previous managers were waiting for the current keeper to make enough mistakes to be dropped, which totally ignores his form.  Everyone on here agrees that Guzan should have stayed in the team last season but because Given hadn't played badly enough to lose his spot he got it back as soon as he was fit.

Sorry mate - i disagree completely. Guzan did very little in the Tranmere game to justify him staying in - it was more about a poor EC for Ireland followed by at least two of the goals against Everton were totally Givens fault

Someone somewhere mention a very good point and that it maybe none of us know how badly the death of his best mate (Speed) has effected him

Either way Guzan was resigned on the basis that if he gets his chance and does well he stays in - well Bradders the shirt is your to lose because Saturday was as a complete a Goalkeepers performance as i have seen for many years - it had everything Great reaction saves, superb domination of area, crossing interception and vocal command of back 4

As i said unless Guzan fucks up Given will get splinters for a while

Also his performance at Bremen was poor which may have had some bearing - Given has never been a commanding keeper in respect of picking off crosses and Guzan has improved this element of his game considerably.

[Witton Warrior]

The last two seasons were a chore to attend.
I feared after the Everton game it would be the same but there was excitement and, admittedly, some trepidation on Saturday but can't wait for the Olbiun now...

[Hookeysmith]

Hookey - the problem is I completely disagree with the sentiment of "put a stake in the ground for any player to understand their place can be lost with poor performances".

The stake it puts in the ground is, "if you're given a chance and you take it you'll be rewarded".

I want people losing their place because the guy behind them is chomping at the bit, not because they've made mistakes.

I'm not saying Given deserved to keep his spot, I'd have dropped him last season and he's gone backwards since, I'm saying the message he sends is, and should be, "if you earn your spot you keep it unless someone else does more to earn it", rather than "you'll keep you're spot until you fuck up".

As a non-starter the first shows that training hard and putting in the effort when you come off the bench, etc will be rewarded, the latter says no matter how well you do you stay where you are until that guy proves he shouldn't be there.  The latter approach is the more traditional one in the UK and is a key reason why we don't see as many kids coming through at premier league clubs, stick with a trusted if limited player rather than run the risk of picking an untried youngster.

Good points and i accept what you say - either way it gives us and more importantly the understudies at the club hope that their efforst will be paid off

[sonlyme]

Hookey - great post.

Guzan is indeed a more complete goalkeeper than Shay - dominating his area and marshaling his defence.  Shay is a top shot stopper - but the way Guzan now comes out and claims balls relieves an enormous amount of pressure off his defenders.  Shay is much like Brad Friedel in that he is primarily a net minder - and as such relies on strong centre halves to control the box.  Both Friedel and Given are top keepers when it comes to reacting to shots - but neither is great at commanding their area - as truly great goalkeepers do - like Schmeichel, Van de Sar, or indeed Pat Jennings.

Guzan was always a good stopper - his penalty performances in the League Cup told us that, but he used to look nervous when handling high balls.   He has worked hard at that aspect of his game and is now reaping the reward for all that hard work.  He looks a million dollars - oops - this is the premiership - make that 10 million.

And you are right about the obvious attitude change in the players.  It is clear for all to see.  It is relaxed professionalism.  It is not a hierarchy based on reputation.  And we will be all the better for that.

There will be ups and downs of course - but as you say - at long last we have a team who will try to win and give it their all.

Long may it continue.

UTV

[not3bad]

What are Villa's relegation odds after Saturday?  I know they shortened after the Newcastle game.

[paul_e]

What are Villa's relegation odds after Saturday?  I know they shortened after the Newcastle game.

irrelevent?

[john e]

wasnt the Everton keeper poor last night, i think he could take some blame for both Newky goals last night

[silhillvilla]

wasnt the Everton keeper poor last night, i think he could take some blame for both Newky goals last night

Possibly you're in the wrong thread

[Karl Bridges]

Going back to the early talk of Vlaar being made captain. The concrete one has apparently taken over the dressing room to such an extent that PL really didn't have a choice. He has said he wants Bent to concentrate on scoring goals, which is fair enough.

[Baldy]

Excellent post Hookey, I would add just one thing.

PL has now 'earnt' the 'support' of the villa supporters and this has given the players and club a massive lift.

In the last few years our players must have been 'sh*tting a blue brick' when turning up at Villa Park, now, they are 'licking their lips'.

PL, has turned negativity into positivity throughout the club and this has given the supporters, and in turn, the players a major confidence boost.

Hopefully, Villa Park will become a fortress again instead of a picnic for the opposition.

 

[pauliewalnuts]

I just read that Sunderland have managed a grand total of five shots on goal from their three league matches so far this season.

That's the MON way.

I was reading one of their forums today, and there was much moaning about sitting back and trying to play on the counter attack at home, and having no Plan B. A few of the posters were pointing this out, but most of them were calling them "knee jerkers" and moaners.

It was just like this place a few years ago.

It does, though, make you think that we're really fighting to throw of the bad habits of four years or more. It won't happen in the space of a few matches.

[Ger Regan]

I just read that Sunderland have managed a grand total of five shots on goal from their three league matches so far this season.

That's the MON way.

I was reading one of their forums today, and there was much moaning about sitting back and trying to play on the counter attack at home, and having no Plan B. A few of the posters were pointing this out, but most of them were calling them "knee jerkers" and moaners.

It was just like this place a few years ago.

It does, though, make you think that we're really fighting to throw of the bad habits of four years or more. It won't happen in the space of a few matches.

To be fair to Houllier, those sort of bad habits were what he was trying to get rid of, albeit in a fairly ham-fisted fashion at times. Not to mention the predominantly attacking football on display last season. Ahem.

[pauliewalnuts]

I agree, he was trying to do that, at least. Whether he was succeeding is another question, but there's no doubt we took a 12 month trip in the opposite direction under McLeish last season.

That's the thing that baffled me most about the appointment. It wasn't his shit record, but the fact that you appoint a manager like Houllier, who then starts moving things into the modern age, then you appoint someone who is a poster boy for outmoded, outdated, and frankly horrible 1980s style English football.

[Ger Regan]

I agree, he was trying to do that, at least. Whether he was succeeding is another question, but there's no doubt we took a 12 month trip in the opposite direction under McLeish last season.

That's the thing that baffled me most about the appointment. It wasn't his shit record, but the fact that you appoint a manager like Houllier, who then starts moving things into the modern age, then you appoint someone who is a poster boy for outmoded, outdated, and frankly horrible 1980s style English football.

No argument here. I doubt we'll ever find out the real thinking (or lack thereof) behind it.

[Steve R]

I agree, he was trying to do that, at least. Whether he was succeeding is another question, but there's no doubt we took a 12 month trip in the opposite direction under McLeish last season.

That's the thing that baffled me most about the appointment. It wasn't his shit record, but the fact that you appoint a manager like Houllier, who then starts moving things into the modern age, then you appoint someone who is a poster boy for outmoded, outdated, and frankly horrible 1980s style English football.

No argument here. I doubt we'll ever find out the real thinking (or lack thereof) behind it.

It is almost as if the board looked at what success McLeish had at SHA (highest placing in generations, league cup) and attributed it to his managerial skills whereas the failures (relegations, shite football) were a consequence of not having money to spend and nothing to do with him at all.

We are now having the season that we should have had two years ago. Substantial rebuild on top of substantial re-think as to the way we do things and the way we play.

Houllier may have delivered this, but was denied the opportunity to get the ball rolling properly by the timing of O'Neill's departure. I really don't understand either why we suddenly switched to Mcleish after Houllier. Especially when the preferred candidate was Martinez.

It says much for O'Neills legacy that for all his transfer dealing, barely two years after his departure not a single one of his outfield signings is featuring in the starting XI and of the four that remain at the club, Warnock and Dunne would have long since gone if a suitable home could have been found.