Racism in football - The Guardian

[Percy McCarthy]

Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.

[peter w]

It wasn't that long ago that it was considered a truism that black players couldn't do the shift work in midfield.

[drisaac]

Have you any evidence that that's racist?

Looking at the dictionary,

racism, noun
1.  a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement

That's all the evidence I need.


It's disturbingly easy to find a simple thing that black people participate in more than white people, or vice versa, and then claim it must be because of our genetic differences. 

Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people?  Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists. 

[Risso]

In that link about Kenyan long distance runners, they took Kenyan people (from an area that had produced several winning runners) with no training, trained them up and in a few months they were easily beating times set by professional Western runners.  The Mbutu tribe are on average, about five foot tall, so you wouldn't expect them to provide many basketball players.  So, because thy are not very tall because of genetic reasons, is it racist to say that they won't be good at sports where height is an advantage?

[Risso]

Have you any evidence that that's racist?

Looking at the dictionary,

racism, noun
1.  a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement

That's all the evidence I need.

I notice you left this bit out of the quote:

"usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others."

Which does rather render your "evidence" nothing of the sort.  Human beings are all different, and to say that any sporting advantage or disadvantage as a result of those difference is racist is clearly nonsense.

[drisaac]

Have you any evidence that that's racist?

Looking at the dictionary,

racism, noun
1.  a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement

That's all the evidence I need.

I notice you left this bit out of the quote:

"usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others."

Which does rather render your "evidence" nothing of the sort.  Human beings are all different, and to say that any sporting advantage or disadvantage as a result of those difference is racist is clearly nonsense.

So if I say something general like, "white people are cleverer than non-whites", that's not racist?

[JJ-AV]

Are you joking? Of course it is.

[drisaac]

Are you joking? Of course it is.

Of course it is.  And if I say about a football team "Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection" then that's racist too, right?

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people?  Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists. 

http://worldcrunch.com/meet-yohann-g-ne-first-black-cyclist-ever-tour-de-france/3430

Meet Yohann Gène, The First Black Cyclist Ever In The Tour De France

Hailing from Guadeloupe, the 30-year-old Yohann Gène’s presence in the Tour de France is a watershed, challenging a competitive cycling world described as “homogeneous” and even prone to racism.
 
Yohann Gène smiles. At 30, the Guadeloupian member of the Europcar team is the first black cyclist to take part in the Tour de France. A professional racer since 2005, Gène is described by other cyclists as a model teammate and vital to support the leaders.
 
Gène was 17 when he first moved to Europe, and soon after discovered the passion for the green open spaces where his bike could bring him. “When I ride, I see all kinds of landscapes. I feel free.” As a kid, he followed the Tour de France on television, but strangely imagined himself in another, far less well-known race. “I always dreamed of the Paris-Roubaix- because of its audience and its warrior-like competitors who always risk falling.” And all that in the rough northern weather.
 
Having arrived with a friend, Rony Martias, the pair entered a special high school course for athletically-gifted pupils. Jean-René Bernaudeau, manager of the Europcar Team, remembers Gène’s first steps on the European stage. “I was lucky to take both Yohann and Rony – I know the West Indies pretty well. Cycling is very much alive there. It’s the only French department where cycling is more popular than soccer, The Tour de Guadeloupe is the event of the year.”
 
Even though cycling has become increasingly globalized, Yohann Gène’s presence is remarkable nevertheless. “We have been subject to racism,” says his manager. “I had to deal with a few problems and contact sponsors of two foreign teams about it. After the doping incidents, I couldn’t let racism be part of cycling.”
 
Forerunner, Jean-René Bernaudeau would have liked to hire two Eritreans this year, but they didn’t obtain their visas. “In the West Indies, cycling is a real culture. We only have to repeat what we did with Yohann Gène. In Africa, you need three years to transform someone’s talent into a good cyclist and then help him enter the professional world. Right now there is an Ethiopian, Tsgabu Grmay, who could win the climb of the Alpes d’Huez. The cycling culture needs to open up. It’s a small world, with a homogenous culture.” That may be about to change.

[drisaac]

Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people?  Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists. 

http://worldcrunch.com/meet-yohann-g-ne-first-black-cyclist-ever-tour-de-france/3430

Meet Yohann Gène, The First Black Cyclist Ever In The Tour De France

Hailing from Guadeloupe, the 30-year-old Yohann Gène’s presence in the Tour de France is a watershed, challenging a competitive cycling world described as “homogeneous” and even prone to racism.
...

One.  And he's 138th overall. 

White cyclists are better athletes and therefore dominate selection

Racist or not? You choose...

[AlwaysAVFC]

Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.

Probably not avoiding a sweeping generalisation too well myself but also attempting to be balanced, I would say that it is quite evident that in certain areas Black people have better general strength & athleticism this also doesn't always mean they make better footballers (although it helps), as football isn't all about strength & athleticism. There are positions that require a different skill set such as a typical number 10 or midfield play maker, which you don't get too many black people, Like wise in the NFL and quarter backs. I realise what I'm trying to say sounds bad, it isn't always the case and is a bit of a generalistion but is my opinion and you only need to make the observation.

Where things differ is where people mention cycling and swimming as I think that is more a demographic and cultural thing. It is often though that Black people bones are more dense making them not so good at swimming, i'm on the understanding that if it is the case the bone is more dense it isn't enough to make a difference, I don't know enough about the science of it. I would just say it is more a case of Black people not tending to swim as much, I am just guessing but I think you'd find the percentage of black adults that can't swim is far higher than white people in this country.

As for cycling I think that again it comes down culture, demographics and purely expense. Black people have always suffered with most being on the botttom scale when it comes to wealth whether your talking about a specific country or as countries internationally. Cycling is quite an expensive sport so you need to be able to afford it to start with and black people generally just haven't been able to meaning cycling isn't something that people in black communities have grown up with. With investment in cycling in Kenya for example it could be quite possible that you could find talent to compete with the best in the Tour de France.

Also I'd would say that having black players is an inspiration to the black community to support a club. Looking at Arsenal. I'd say their black support increase dramatically in the early 00's as the their team was nearly all black at one stage. Obviously this wasn't the only factor as they were the best team in the country then and this is going to get more people following in itself.

[KevinGage]

Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.

Who knew?

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people?  Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists. 

http://worldcrunch.com/meet-yohann-g-ne-first-black-cyclist-ever-tour-de-france/3430

Meet Yohann Gène, The First Black Cyclist Ever In The Tour De France

Hailing from Guadeloupe, the 30-year-old Yohann Gène’s presence in the Tour de France is a watershed, challenging a competitive cycling world described as “homogeneous” and even prone to racism.
...

One.  And he's 138th overall. 

White cyclists are better athletes and therefore dominate selection

Racist or not? You choose...

I have no idea. Maybe Cycling is like Golf ?

[olaftab]

Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.

My intention was not to diverte the discussion in this direction. I was simply trying to make a point that we should not expect fans on terraces to be equal to the percentage of black players in the PL. Compared to general population percentages the number of professional footballers is much high and there is probably a reason for that.  It is unfortunate that drisaac has decided to label that as "racist".
I expect the crowd mix at VP to represent the general mix of society regardless of colour of our players.

[drisaac]

Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.

Who knew?

Strange.  Are they immune from being racists because they are black?