Claret & blue: the history?

[villan1975]

Listen carefully, while I explain it AGAIN:

Nobody knows the definitive reason why Villa play in claret and blue. It isn't because William McGregor and his wife supported Rangers and Hearts respectively; both were comparatively minor teams then and he had no interest in football until he moved to Birmingham. Neither is it because Villa copied the interior design of the Barton's - it wasn't built until 1904.

Two more realistic theories have been put forward, the first by former programme editor and author Bernard Gallagher who during the course of his research discovered that Villa inside forward Ollie Wheatley, who was a graphic designer, was commissioned to design a kit. This might tie in with the second theory, by Simon Inglis. At this time many of the larger houses in Birmingham would have had Minton tiles, and the most common design of these were in claret (or chocolate) and blue. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Wheatley saw this somewhere and copied it.

Were there such people as graphic designers in 1886/7? 

Commercial artist, as it was then known.

I believe as the famous historian Reginald Perriwinkle wrote they were also known as "confirmed bachelors" and/or "musical theatre enthusiasts".

[Louzie0]

Listen carefully, while I explain it AGAIN:

Nobody knows the definitive reason why Villa play in claret and blue. It isn't because William McGregor and his wife supported Rangers and Hearts respectively; both were comparatively minor teams then and he had no interest in football until he moved to Birmingham. Neither is it because Villa copied the interior design of the Barton's - it wasn't built until 1904.

Two more realistic theories have been put forward, the first by former programme editor and author Bernard Gallagher who during the course of his research discovered that Villa inside forward Ollie Wheatley, who was a graphic designer, was commissioned to design a kit. This might tie in with the second theory, by Simon Inglis. At this time many of the larger houses in Birmingham would have had Minton tiles, and the most common design of these were in claret (or chocolate) and blue. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Wheatley saw this somewhere and copied it.

Were there such people as graphic designers in 1886/7? 

Commercial artist, as it was then known.

I believe they were also known as "confirmed bachelors" and/or "musical theatre enthusiasts".

So - Villa were costumed by Gilbert & Sullivan.

[villan1975]

Listen carefully, while I explain it AGAIN:

Nobody knows the definitive reason why Villa play in claret and blue. It isn't because William McGregor and his wife supported Rangers and Hearts respectively; both were comparatively minor teams then and he had no interest in football until he moved to Birmingham. Neither is it because Villa copied the interior design of the Barton's - it wasn't built until 1904.

Two more realistic theories have been put forward, the first by former programme editor and author Bernard Gallagher who during the course of his research discovered that Villa inside forward Ollie Wheatley, who was a graphic designer, was commissioned to design a kit. This might tie in with the second theory, by Simon Inglis. At this time many of the larger houses in Birmingham would have had Minton tiles, and the most common design of these were in claret (or chocolate) and blue. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Wheatley saw this somewhere and copied it.

Were there such people as graphic designers in 1886/7? 

Commercial artist, as it was then known.

I believe they were also known as "confirmed bachelors" and/or "musical theatre enthusiasts".

So - Villa were costumed by Gilbert & Sullivan.

[hawkeye]

Listen carefully, while I explain it AGAIN:

Nobody knows the definitive reason why Villa play in claret and blue. It isn't because William McGregor and his wife supported Rangers and Hearts respectively; both were comparatively minor teams then and he had no interest in football until he moved to Birmingham. Neither is it because Villa copied the interior design of the Barton's - it wasn't built until 1904.

Two more realistic theories have been put forward, the first by former programme editor and author Bernard Gallagher who during the course of his research discovered that Villa inside forward Ollie Wheatley, who was a graphic designer, was commissioned to design a kit. This might tie in with the second theory, by Simon Inglis. At this time many of the larger houses in Birmingham would have had Minton tiles, and the most common design of these were in claret (or chocolate) and blue. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Wheatley saw this somewhere and copied it.

Were there such people as graphic designers in 1886/7? 

Commercial artist, as it was then known.

I believe they were also known as "confirmed bachelors" and/or "musical theatre enthusiasts".

So - Villa were costumed by Gilbert & Sullivan.

Or well known players of the Pink Oboe

[Rob92]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

[darren woolley]

I've learned something new about our great club cheers Dave.

[lordmcgrath5]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

I seem to remember reading in what looked like a reliable source that this was precisely why Burnley went for claret and blue.

[Ron Manager]

I'm sticking with Claret & Pale Blue for the club colours then which has been the belief for many generations of our Villa family. Only recently have I been told we play in Sky Blue. Maybe Mr Woodhall can shed some light or express his belief.

I started in the 50s. I always thought our colours were claret and ice blue.  Interesting thread though!

[peter w]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

I seem to remember reading in what looked like a reliable source that this was precisely why Burnley went for claret and blue.

In a previous job a Burnley fan - having found out I was a Villa fan - proudly approached me telling me that Burnley were (I vaguely remember) founded in 1905 (could check that up but that's too much like work) and they took their claret & blue from the biggest club of the day which were Villa. He said he always had a soft spot for us because of that.

I have no idea why Scunthorpe, Tranmere, and Man City to a degree copied the colours but it must have something to do with us. If not directly they may have simply been because they liked the colours - and as we were the first we'll claim that.

I also remember a couple of years ago heading towards London from some prison - I think in Lichfield - when there were a few youthul grebos on the train due to some rock festival up in that neck of the woods. As we were going past Villa Park she let out a resounding boo to the loss of the people with her. After asking why she was booing she said that she hated Villa because we had copied their colours. they asked who nd she said she supported West Ham. Now, I usually correct people in that situation but to make such a loud error told me that it was propbably her dad or brother(s) who were West ham fans and she would not care/make a difference to me correcting her.

Where's Sendo by the way? he still around? I'll ask him to have a word.

[nigel]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

And Juventus play in Black and White stripes to look like...............errr........... Notts County 
I do know the origins of why, before I'm picked up on it.

[nigel]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

I seem to remember reading in what looked like a reliable source that this was precisely why Burnley went for claret and blue.

I have no idea why Scunthorpe, Tranmere, and Man City to a degree copied the colours but it must have something to do with us. If not directly they may have simply been because they liked the colours - and as we were the first we'll claim that.

Tranmere and Man City?
I don't know how accurate www.historicalkits.co.uk is but Tranmere have always wore Blue and White, while Man City only ever had a touch of Claret on their socks (hardly a Claret and Blue kit) or am I being picky on that one? 
It stands a chance Scunthorpe copied our colour as they were C&B from 1904 until '59 and went back to C&B in '82

[peter w]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

And Juventus play in Black and White stripes to look like...............errr........... Notts County 
I do know the origins of why, before I'm picked up on it.

the other story that you're alluding to is actually a myth.

Turin in Italian - torino - is a loose translation of City of Magpies (well just place of magpies) because akin to pigeons being synonomus with Trafalgar Square and Ravens and Tower of London. magpies frquented the area and so the name stuck. So, when the football team - from the City of Magpies - were looking for colours (ORIGINALLY) they opted for a team nicknamed 'The Magpies'. Newcastle it was as it were they that were one of the biggest clubs around and of course Notts County.

There was a general call (cull get it?) for a while to adopt black and white stripes in line with 'magpies' but the club didn't do so initially. but the pink wasn't liked and the rest, as they say, is history.

[DeKuip]

It was Notts County (not Newcastle) that Juventus invited over to Turin last season to open their new ground – in recognition of Juve's first black and white striped kit being shipped over from Nottingham in 1903. Until then they wore pink.

[nigel]

The theory that other clubs copied us because we were quality at the time makes sense to me. After all, Leeds wear all white because they wanted to look like Real Madrid.

And Juventus play in Black and White stripes to look like...............errr........... Notts County 
I do know the origins of why, before I'm picked up on it.

the other story that you're alluding to is actually a myth.

Turin in Italian - torino - is a loose translation of City of Magpies (well just place of magpies) because akin to pigeons being synonomus with Trafalgar Square and Ravens and Tower of London. magpies frquented the area and so the name stuck. So, when the football team - from the City of Magpies - were looking for colours (ORIGINALLY) they opted for a team nicknamed 'The Magpies'. Newcastle it was as it were they that were one of the biggest clubs around and of course Notts County.

There was a general call (cull get it?) for a while to adopt black and white stripes in line with 'magpies' but the club didn't do so initially. but the pink wasn't liked and the rest, as they say, is history.

Got this from Wikepedia:
Colours, badge and nicknames
 
"Juventus have played in black and white striped shirts, with white shorts, sometimes black shorts since 1903. Originally, they played in pink shirts with a black tie, but only because they had been sent the wrong shirts. The father of one of the players made the earliest shirts, but continual washing faded the colour so much that in 1903 the club sought to replace them.
 
Juventus asked one of their team members, Englishman John Savage, if he had any contacts in England who could supply new shirts in a color that would better withstand the elements. He had a friend who lived in Nottingham, who being a Notts County supporter, shipped out the black and white striped shirts to Turin. Juve have worn the shirts ever since, considering the colors to be aggressive and powerful."

Regarding nicknames,
 [La] Vecchia Signora (The Old Lady)
 [La] Fidanzata d'Italia (The Girlfriend of Italy)
  bianconeri (The White-Blacks)
 [Le] Zebre (The Zebras)
 [La] Signora Omicidi (The Lady Killer)
 [La] Goeba (Gallo-Italic for: Hunchback)

No mention of Magpies.
I won't doubt that Turin might have lots of magpies (never been there) so it might be known as the City of magpies (Città di gazze) but, I don't think Torino means, or loosely translates to, City of magpies.

[nigel]

It was Notts County (not Newcastle) that Juventus invited over to Turin last season to open their new ground – in recognition of Juve's first black and white striped kit being shipped over from Nottingham in 1903. Until then they wore pink.

Correct