Who is to blame?

[monkeyboy]

The chairman, unfortunately.

He managed the finances in such away that it really was shit or bust, and we are now seeing the bust bit.

Worse than that, on two occasions, he displayed a staggering ineptitude in identifying a manager, such that, last time, he targeted a man who has spent most of the season bottom (again), only to get turned down and then appoint a guy who actually failed to keep his last team in the top flight.

Randy stumped up a lot of money at first, but by his own sheer incompetence has pissed away everything achieved in four years.

Look at us now. Fifteenth, dreadful team, a manager the fans loathe, no money to spend, and dwindling crowds.

In other words, exactly where we were at the end of  the 2005-6 season, except now we are hugely in debt, too.

The guy clearly had good intentions - at least till he got bored of it all - but has proven on both sides of the Atlantic that he knows nothing at all about running a sport business.

This is the Truth of it, what an absoloute shambles.

This,

you would hope that Lerner would have the courage to say - i gave it my best shot, enjoyed it while it lasted - but frankly i'm out of my depth, time to cut and run for the good of the club

Sadly I think Lerner et al will carry on regardless and we have to suck it up - all very depressing - McLeish is just the turd flavoured icing on the cake

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

Havent we been here before on many occasions over the decades ? With Lerner, without Lerner, with Ellis, without Ellis, Pre Ellis.
But you always had the hope that if the right mix of ingredients came together you might only be a couple of years from being really really good. Now you need the added ingredient of a quite a few hundred million too.

[Summers]

Lerner took a massive gamble, it failed. But McLeish could be doing more, could be trying, could be doing... anything. He isn't.

He's so far out of his depth the coastguard is on 24 hours notice.

[Toronto Villa]

Lots of people. Lerner for being too trusting/naive and O'Neill for being a prick and walking out on the best job he'll ever have. That started the dominos falling and it has miserable ever since. Even as we thought GH might be getting it right, he falls ill. It's been a pretty dire 2 years.

[PeterWithesShin]

Havent we been here before on many occasions over the decades ? With Lerner, without Lerner, with Ellis, without Ellis, Pre Ellis.
But you always had the hope that if the right mix of ingredients came together you might only be a couple of years from being really really good. Now you need the added ingredient of a quite a few hundred million too.

86 nearly relegated. 87 relegated. 88 promoted. 89 nearly relegated. 90 nearly champions. 91 nearly relegated. 93 nearly champions.

It didn't take much to go from one end of the table to the other back in those days, although I doubt anyone did it quite as frequently or spectacularly as we did.
As you say though, nowadays, the only way to the top 4 nevermind a title challenge is to either be very very lucky,  or much more likely, spend an insane amount of money.

[Richie]

O'Neill dropped some major bollocks with some of his signings (and sales) and more importantly, the obscene wages they are on.

But Lerner obviously allowed him to make these decisions so for that he has to take he blame. I don't blame him for the cuts he has made recently, we don't want to end up like Portsmouth.

I think McLeish was on a hiding to nothing from day one. If you've come from the dark side and have to sell your best players, there's only one way it's going to go.

Under the circumstances, do you think we would be much higher up the table with another manager ?

[Monty]

I have never been too negative about the club before this season. It was before my H&V lifetime, but it took me longer than most to want DOL out. I supported MON in spite of everything, and believed (and still believe) GH got a lot of unfair stick and had a good vision for the future of the club. However, I have nothing positive to say about Alex McLeish's management of the team, nor the perplexingly wrong-headed process which lead to his appointment.

Lerner's not a fool, just a very trusting man, to a fault. He probably sought advice from football people over the criteria for appointing a manager, as you'd do in any industry you accept others are more acquainted with. However, football is not any industry - it is an industry where evidence-based fact isn't a big thing, where people get away with spouting cliches which become accepted as fact, for no apparent reason, where ex-players are given chances at managerial jobs they have no qualifications for due to a nepotistic old boys network holding back a true meritocracy.

As a result, Lerner, in good faith, sought advice, and was told that Premier League experience was, apparently, a must-have for any manager. So he trusts this advice, despite the lack of any evidence as to why that criterion was so important. More than anything else, that requirement narrowed our list of potential candidates arbitrarily and damagingly, meaning we ended up with a candidate far less suitable for the post than many others we didn't even consider.

Who's to blame? Whoever told Randy that Premier League experience was necessary for any new manager. Randy's too trusting - that person is wrong and intellectually lazy. Fuck them.

[PaulWinch again]

I think that does make Randy a naive fool unfortunately.

[mrfuse]

O'Neill dropped some major bollocks with some of his signings (and sales) and more importantly, the obscene wages they are on.

But Lerner obviously allowed him to make these decisions so for that he has to take he blame. I don't blame him for the cuts he has made recently, we don't want to end up like Portsmouth.

I think McLeish was on a hiding to nothing from day one. If you've come from the dark side and have to sell your best players, there's only one way it's going to go.

Under the circumstances, do you think we would be much higher up the table with another manager ?

I agree with this post but I also believe we would have accepted being mid table if we had a least tried playing football we still have good players but McLeish hasn't a clue what to do with them

[Monty]

I think that does make Randy a naive fool unfortunately.

Not necessarily. He could have sought loads of different peoples' views, but the problem remains that a lot of the people who run English football are, frankly, not that bright. So even if he does look for varied opinions, he may find a lot of the same pieces of received 'wisdom' being spouted at him.

[eastie]

Blame the players, o neill, houllier, mcleish, faulkner and lerner but the buck stops with randy - he has made a pigs ear of things and our club is sliding downhill fast - time to find a new owner randy and hand over the reins please!

[Witton Warrior]

I think that does make Randy a naive fool unfortunately.

Not necessarily. He could have sought loads of different peoples' views, but the problem remains that a lot of the people who run English football are, frankly, not that bright. So even if he does look for varied opinions, he may find a lot of the same pieces of received 'wisdom' being spouted at him.

Monty your statement about people in football not being that bright is spot on.
I made a similar comment about the spoutings forth of managers on another thread.
I am constantly amazed at the stupidity and ignorance of people "in the game", it is another world from the one I live and work in.

[Monty]

I think that does make Randy a naive fool unfortunately.

Not necessarily. He could have sought loads of different peoples' views, but the problem remains that a lot of the people who run English football are, frankly, not that bright. So even if he does look for varied opinions, he may find a lot of the same pieces of received 'wisdom' being spouted at him.

Monty your statement about people in football not being that bright is spot on.
I made a similar comment about the spoutings forth of managers on another thread.
I am constantly amazed at the stupidity and ignorance of people "in the game", it is another world from the one I live and work in.

I think it was Jonathan Wilson on the Guardian Podcast who said that people would be surprised at quite how clueless people in football sometimes are. We think they have a plan, some ideas, some tactics, but often they don't - they just muddle along, somehow getting jobs. Given he's a Sunderland fan, this may well have been prompted by Bruce, who was managing them at the time.

[hawkeye]

Lerner has the control of the club and the big decisions are down to him, so he is responsible for this mess. The problem is that no one believes that Lerner has the ability to start making decisions to turn the situation around.

[Mister E]

I think McLeish was on a hiding to nothing from day one. If you've come from the dark side and have to sell your best players, there's only one way it's going to go.

I think that's rubbish. There was nothing to do with his previous club and all to do with his footballing philosophy and capability. He just ain't good enough. Even with Ashley and Downing gone, there was enough talent to do well in a relatively poor league.

Under the circumstances, do you think we would be much higher up the table with another manager ?

Yes, given the right choice of manager - and there's the rub: Lerner isn't close enough to it all to know what "right" looks like. And he boxed himself into a corner with the 'Premiershp experience' criterion for selection.