Prem v Bundesliga - Are we doing something wrong?

[kippaxvilla2]

Unfortunately while there is one name associated with the discredited product that is the Premier League it will never happen here - the name, Scudamore.

[Lucky Eddie]

Maybe them jairmans are just a lot less fickle than you are?       

[lennythekad]

If you could pay £12 to stand and have a nice tram take you to VP for free,  I could see us full most games.  Other considerations:  do the Germans have a lot of games on and moved times for Sky?

Out of their nine top flight fixtures each weekend, four are televised live at set times. Friday night 2030, Saturday night 1830 and Sunday 1530 and 1730. The TV games are highlighted up to the end of November at the moment, more or less the same as us.

Also, at most clubs the cheap terrace tickets are sold out to sth's before the season starts. The seats usually range from around £20 up to £50 approx.

[pauliewalnuts]

The "best league in the world" nonsense we hear spouted all the time is just that - utter nonsense.

It is without a doubt the best marketed league in the world, but that's a different matter altogether.

[Holy Trinity]

Agree with most of this

People will come and watch us if:

It is reasonably priced
We are successful
We play good exciting football

i read all the bollocks last week as to why we don't get a greater diversity of ethicities through the gates, well if we won something and built on that success we would.

 we were.

If I could afford it I would come regardless of how successful we are.

100% right if it was 15-20 quid a ticket with travel concession i'd be at minimum 15 home games a season. before anyone mentions trinity wings dont bother upper holte k4 or 5 is where i love to be, i did go lower holte for my last game vs man city l2 i think it was 2nd row, there were 4 people around me my mrs 2 st holders and her kid had come as a bday treat so it was slightly to dull down there for me

[Mazrim]

The problem with this league is that the turnover for most clubs is largely TV revenue. Gate revenue is largely a supplement. Now, you'd think this would mean that clubs could afford to drop ticket prices substantially but unfortunately this brings us to the other and perhaps most significant problem. The spoilt brats that play in our league (even a lot of the shit ones) are on ridiculous money and many clubs have to rinse the fans for every penny just to pay them and break even, thats with the massive SKY revenue added in. As the TV and commercial revenue go up, so do the players demands, thus the ticket prices also go up. It's not right.

It's going to take some sort of revolution to put this right and I'm pretty sure nobody will want to blink first so that means it will have to be something like a couple of major clubs going to the wall or maybe SKY going bust. Both scenarios are unlikely.
Also, our country is slowly going down the shitter and unlike the Germans, we do put up with it. We'll moan and grumble but we'll put up with it or just say nowt and don't show up. Apathy. Same as it ever was.

Football crowds are just a reflection of that apathy.
And in Villa's case, we've run into a glass window with a beautiful vista beyond.
The ambitions of the club now seem small time and tentative with very little imagination or planning and worst still, absolutely no communication.
However neccessary, the shock has been somewhat rude and it will have a dramatic effect on the fans who will no doubt feel hurt by it.

Villa wont be the only club to apply the brakes either.

[Toronto Villa]

It's really easy to understand the difference between the two leagues. The governing body of one doesn't want to see balance and equality so has no intention of changing the system. The clubs that benefit most as a result don't want any change and the money they generate for the league is the stick they use to keep it that way. The other governing body has put aside its own selfish motivations and the major clubs, including one of the greatest clubs in European football history has conceded that for the greater good their own league should be run not just based on wealth but on a system whereby others have an opportunity to succeed. That in itself keeps fans interested and the game healthy. In the second example, the leading clubs have somewhat foregone European success (though they are still in the mix every season) for domestic strength for all.

If you think the governing body of the first example is going to change, you'll not want to hold your breath in hope.

[TonyD]

The PL is a "product" no more no less.  As with all products they have a lifecycle and the PL is now in decline.  This decline has been made worse by the economy and its own greed.   In Germany it seems it is still about the game and the fans.  The problem we have here is that Sky money has burdened most clubs with large debts so they need Sky to continue to service their "habit" so no club is going to change the current culture of greed/image to really improve supporter experience.  Just look at QPR.

[UsualSuspect]

We have got our ticketing policy half right, I had a man City ticket in the upper trinity for 15 quid last season.

If for example we made adult tickets 10 quid for Wigan i still don't reckon we would sell out and you cant offer a ticket for less than a tenner

[Brend'Watkins]

There are other factors at play here.

1.  Since the last world cup in Germany the football feel good factor is still alive in Germany.
2.  Germany has a population in excess of 80 million.

Maybe if we had that population and a national team that had similar kind of success then we too might see the same level of interest.

[pauliewalnuts]

I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.

Also, if you look at German attendances pre 2006, they were already pretty enormous.

There's no shortage of interest in the game in this country, but the prices are truly horrendous.

[adrenachrome]

The Football Circle

Bundesliga Vs The Premiership; strangers or brothers?

Speak to football fans in England about the Bundesliga and the majority of them will have no knowledge of the teams, or even what is currently going on (with the exception maybe of Bayern Munich's Champions League progress). This may not seem a particularly striking fact as knowledge of most leagues around Europe is poor. People tend to hold the opinion that the Premier League (PL) is the best league - so why bother watching others. However, a look into German football reveals that it is infact very similar to English football and the PL in many ways.

English fans are often considered by many (mainly by English people), to be the most passionate in Europe, although the Germans are certainly capable of at least matching them. The Bundesliga is currently the most well supported league in Europe with an average attendance of around 38,000 , a figure over twice that of current PL club Wigan Athletics average. Last years league champions Borissia Dortmund also achieved the second highest average attendance in Europe with over 80,000, only bettered by Barcelona.

Tune in to any Bundesliga game and you'll instantly be struck by the passion and colour on display from banners, scarves and costumes. Something not really seen so often in England, particularly since the large hike in ticket prices etc, possibly with the exception of Anfield on a flag day ( although they may argue they are not English - they are Scouse.)

On the pitch the styles are also very similar. Unlike the majority of European leagues the Bundesliga and the PL are very physical leagues. A fact backed up by the two leagues recording some of the highest fouls per game ratio's of the top European leagues - even with La Liga's inclination for 'simulation'. The game is also played at a similar frantic pace, something foreign to the other European leagues who would consider themselves to adopt a more 'calculated' approach.

The similarities with the two leagues should lend itself to the idea that player acquisitions between respective clubs should be fairly successful. However, perhaps strangely, there is a limited amount of history of clubs from these leagues conducting business - in comparison to the other western European leagues such as La Liga, Ligue 1, Serie A. However, the transfers of players such as Markus Babbel, Michael Ballack or even Kevin Keegan to some extent can point to the fact that on the occasions business is done, the transition between leagues is a strong one.

Although there are many examples of these leagues being alike, there is one major difference. The way clubs are run at board/ownership level is completely different. In England there is currently a scramble for the worlds richest to buy PL clubs, in recent years there have been takeover deals involving over a third of PL clubs, the most lucrative owners being Manchester City's sheiks - who have constantly pumped in hundreds of millions of pounds for a shot at success. Unfortunately there is a downside though, the recent demand for PL clubs is a fairly new phenomenon and rules were not set in place early enough to prevent poorly run companies and owners from seizing control of clubs purely for their own commercial benefit. Perfect examples of this are Portsmouth's ownership debacle which eventually sent the club into administration, and Liverpool's 2007 takeover which also bled the club dry - something they are only recovering from now.

In stark contrast to this, 'outside' parties can only buy a maximum of 49% of a club in the Bundesliga - with at least 51% having to be member owned (fan owned). This essentially means that funds generated should be going straight back into the club and not servicing any owner or takeover/ leveraged buyout debts, as well as ensuring that aspects such as ticket prices are kept at a lower premium. In essence, the supporters have a controlling say in the club, meaning so long as they have the clubs interest at heart it is unlikely to encounter the risk of mismanagement (unlike PL teams).

With UEFA Financial Fair Play (UFFP) rules due to be introduced in the near future requiring all clubs to eventually 'live within their means', operating at a very small loss at worst, fans of PL clubs may soon wish that 'member' ownership was another similarity between the leagues - not a difference.

Written by Chris Martin

[Brend'Watkins]

I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.

Also, if you look at German attendances pre 2006, they were already pretty enormous.

There's no shortage of interest in the game in this country, but the prices are truly horrendous.

It's not the only factor but it will have some bearing on it especialy as we also have Rugby in its two forms viying for business. 

I agree the prices are way over the top and are the main factor bearing on reduced attendances but other factors can not be discounted.

[Nev]

Sky almost have their perfect product to sell now. The dominance of a handfull of teams, including the most marketable of all in Newton Heath has created their ideal customer. No connection at all to the clubs only a fascination with success nurtured from childhood through the screen, now parting with money to keep up their support through subscription.

Gary Neville has not been recruited for his media skills but for his identification with the most marketable club, another well considered strategy.

The rest of the Premier League exist as cannon fodder for the rich and powerfull, and while attendances droop for the visit of Wigan and Stoke, they will rise for televised games against the top clubs satifying the demand for atmosphere so craved by the TV execs.

The coverage afforded to the lesser teams is nothing more than lip service to ensure they feel part of the whole shebang, when in reality they are turkeys being plumped up for Christmas slaughter. Live in HD.

While the TV companies pay the money they will call the tune, and there is nothing anybody can do. Apart from refusing to be any part of the whole rotten process. But Sky know damn well that, for many of us, it's a question of loyalty to the club that we have grown up with.

They have the game by the balls.

[fbriai]

I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.

It's not the only factor but it will have some bearing on it especialy as we also have Rugby in its two forms viying for business. 

I agree the prices are way over the top and are the main factor bearing on reduced attendances but other factors can not be discounted.

I'm not sure that it seriously contributes, either. Italy has a population roughly equivalent to the UK (around the 60 million mark) and yet average attendances here are much lower - 23,940 in Serie A so far this season, compared to 33,779 for the Premier League. Yes, this is only for the season so far, but, in general, attendances are significantly lower here.

Having said that, when comparing it with the Bundesliga, I suppose that the fact that it is the English Premier League - therefore with a population in the region of 51 million - should be considered. The difference between 80 million and 50 million is more significant.