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Author Topic: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?  (Read 14512 times)

Offline James Mackay

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 06:50:10 PM »
Great post. Do you work in PR? If the day job doesn't work out I would suggest you give it a shot!

Offline Lambert and Payne

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 08:11:30 PM »
Absolutely superb post sir! Gave me goosebumps!

Offline ktvillan

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 11:14:33 AM »
Re the tackling stats I'd love to know what qualifies as a "tackle", because I can hardly recall Stewie no-balls making any kind of challenge that resembled a good old fashioned tackle.   

The investment in the youth set-up is fine but Villa have tended to produce good youth teams rather than exceptional youth players.  The model should be academies like Ajax and Barca where the emphasis seems to be on technique and developing individual talent.  Which is one reason I was sorry to see GH go, as I think he would have encouraged that kind of approach.

Offline Legion

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 12:18:32 PM »
Well constructed post.

Offline sonlyme

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 01:33:59 PM »
Thanks everyone for reading and responding.

Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have, and trying to dress it up as an admirable belief in our youth system being the answer to our problems.   We've had decent youth sides before, and when the one containing the Moore brothers won the youth cup, people were over-optimistically claiming that Luke Moore was better than Wayne Rooney.  We do produce some good young players, but they're not world beaters, and putting all our faith in them as the way forward is asking far too much of them.


The original post was my personal response to the great wail of whinging that has again arisen online concerning Aston Villa FC.  I write because I cannot believe that some folk are calling for the board to go.  Calling Randy Lerner tight and in it 'for himself'.  Have I missed something?  Is Ron Bendall back?  Has Douglas Herbert risen again?

The OP is not an excuse - it is an analysis of where we are - and where we are is not that bad - even if we aren't bidding for Tevez or seeking to poach Cesc with a 'mind-blowing' offer.  Fair enough to differ in opinion - but if we're going to debate it let's stick to facts.

We are where we are were we are.

And so - I think Mr L - a footballing virgin remember - a billionaire with a lion rampant tattooed on his ankle - wants only the best for the club - but the club needs to be balanced. sustainable and have a plan to move forward as the only other way is to throw money at it (hence my post).  It is not an excuse to want to develop more youth - it is a policy.  A policy born of financial realism.   

Yes, we have had 'promising' youth before - but as others have said, they were luck of the draw finds - we had no system and no infrastructure and no policy in place.  Now we have all of them and a state of the art youth academy alongside the first teams training facilities.  And those facilities are world class.  That's world class.  And all paid for by Mr L. 

We now have permanent coaching staff who remains at the club whoever is first team boss -  no more walking out or getting fired and taking the support staff with you.  No more complete changes in philosophy ever time a manager spits his dummy or gets the boot.  This is progress.

Poor old Randy bought MON's  "I'm in total charge of everything" sales pitch, hook line and sinker.  As did I - because that was the way successful managers used to do it - big names like Shankly - Paisley - and latterly Ferguson.  I was suckered too - because all I wanted was some glory days back at Villa Park.  I wanted them so much I ignored the defensive counter-attacking style because by and large it worked - keep it tight and wait for a mistake won games against other average teams - it won games right up until we faced  teams of quality and purpose - and then we'd fall.

MON had always succeeded before on shoe-string budgets controlled by tightwad owners - what has become apparent after his Villa years is that he plainly had no comprehension of how to deal with the financial reality of running a football club.  He is - to use the lexicon of the message board - a fiscal fool.

And yes - Randy Lerner was a fool too - for buying it.  But Randy was a football virgin - and he has learned something here - hence Mr Faulkener - hence a policy - note, a policy not an excuse - a policy based on reality - a policy re-stated clearly when MON walked out - with Randy stating "there have been no changes in our approach to building the club, aiming always to be as competitive as possible given our size and resources."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/11/randy-lerner-aston-villa-oneill

How can anyone think Mr L needs an excuse not to spend?  Does £24million ring any bells?  The Guardian reports he has spent £200million on our club so far.  Hardly Deadly Doug is he?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts

Randy was guilty of bad judgement - but as they say - good judgement comes from experience -  experience comes through bad judgement. 

Yes - we may well have to cut our cloth accordingly but I think there is virtue in that.  In a world of plastic allegiances and clubs trying to become brands I think it could be something to set us apart.  In much the same way the Acorns thing did.  There is a chance here were we can lead the way for once - and alright - a route to instant success it is not - but we've tried the spending hundreds of millions route - and what a bag of shite that turned out to be.

To want more spending is the childish response to the childish urge to feel like a winner.  Hence the number of ManU and Chelski shirts you see around Birmingham - they've all got a good reason of course - their uncle used to clean the toilets at Old Trafford - or they fell in love the day they saw  "Chopper Osgood and Peter Harris" play (honest) .  How long before we begin to see Man Citeh shirts as well - cos 'Franny Lee once got in the same lift as me mam and farted'.

The transfer window has turned into a version of 'The Only Way is Essex' - but should be retitled 'The Only Way is Excess'.   With faces paraded and ridiculous numbers quoted, with You Tube compilations and insider rumours (yeah, right)  and players smiling and talking of ambition, or threatening to leave before getting that 240k a week deal.  240k a week!  And in between all the posturing and the twittering comes the Disasters Emergency Committee asking me for a couple a quid to help some little kids who are dying because they haven't got any water or food.  Water and food for christ'sake.

My point is - f**k'em.  If we can't buy 'em off the shelf for 40 million - or pay them all 200k a week - f**k'em - we'll make some of our own.  That's my point -- and maybe if they all grow up together and come through together they will stick together and be great together.   I know it's madness and never been done but I think it could work.  Unless of course it is true - you can win nothing with kids?





You say it is asking too much of them to play in the premier league. Sorry - if you're good enough you are old enough.  Besides, what's the alternative?  A stream of second rate Carlos Kickaballs sucking million upon million out of the club and the country?  That's what we've been doing for the last twenty years.  I would prefer a team of local lads with spirit and talent and drive?  And I think you prejudge them saying they are not worldbeaters - only time will tell us that.   I think they can become world beaters - and I hope they do too - otherwise they never will be.



It may mean not competing for that exciting sixth place that so many think important (it's worth £2.6 million extra over 9th place) - it may mean taking a thumping now and again - but they will only get stronger and better and lets be honest - we're not putting all our faith in kids are we?  Is Darren Bent an unproven youngster?  Is Super Shay Given a nervous callow youth?  Petrov, Ireland, Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Agbonlahor, et al, these are all international class players.   Form is temporary - while class is permanent.  I think a few of these senior pros will recover their form under old gingernut - and so they should - they owe us after last season.





The question it seems remains.  Are we are wankers? - Or are we Aston Villa?

I am not a pr person (though I'll listen to offers!) and have no link whatsoever with Mr L or the club - I'm just a fan like everyone else.



« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:38:42 PM by sonlyme »

Offline Muscle-Dolphin

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 01:51:32 PM »
Very cool essays!  The terms wanker and Aston Villa should never be used in the same sentence!  Like any sports team we have our ups and downs.  Yesterday I was very impressed with Ireland (I never thought I would ever say that).  I wonder if Shay Given's presence is helping to mentor him?  If Ireland returns to his form of three years ago - he will be a big asset.  McLeish needs to do what it takes to keep Ireland on his game.  Some of his passes (e.g. leading to Bent's goal) were magnificent.  Ireland, Macoun, Bent and Albrighton need to develop chemistry.  I think that all we need now is a top shelf attacking winger.

Offline LeeB

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 01:57:41 PM »
I say we should petition the club to make  "We are not wankers, we are Aston Villa" our new club motto.

Offline not3bad

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2011, 02:00:13 PM »
Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have

There is a fair bet that Randy is regretting this now, but that post was more about how we move forward isn't it?

Offline LeeB

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2011, 02:01:27 PM »
Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have

There is a fair bet that Randy is regretting this now, but that post was more about how we move forward isn't it?

That's not allowed, there's still a whole load of bitching and whining to do before we kick a ball in anger.

Offline Duncan Shaw

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2011, 02:05:31 PM »
Great, great post.
Thank you.

Offline Mister E

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2011, 02:26:18 PM »
Interestingly, I wrote something of a similar theme - albeit without the analytical rigour of Sonlyme here - recently; again, in response to what I saw as the unreasonable expectations of some here.
Feel free to read (http://bit.ly/n8wp6R) and give feedback / opinion ... opinion is what football is all about, amongst many other things.

Great work, Sonlyme, and difficult to argue with your conclusions.
 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:28:53 PM by EffDee »

Offline Risso

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2011, 03:29:10 PM »

The OP is not an excuse - it is an analysis of where we are - and where we are is not that bad - even if we aren't bidding for Tevez or seeking to poach Cesc with a 'mind-blowing' offer.  Fair enough to differ in opinion - but if we're going to debate it let's stick to facts.

You mention 'facts' just after using Tevez and Fabregas as ludicrously overblown examples to make a point.   I don't think anybody ever expected us to sign players of the calibre of those two, but replacing the two England wingers we've sold should be possible without having to spend £40m on one player.

Quote
To want more spending is the childish response to the childish urge to feel like a winner. 

Again, you mention Chelsea and Man U levels of spending, which is ridiculous.  I just want to see enough spent, and channeled in the right direction to make us competitive again.

Quote
My point is - f**k'em.  If we can't buy 'em off the shelf for 40 million - or pay them all 200k a week - f**k'em - we'll make some of our own.

More hyperbole.

Quote
That's my point -- and maybe if they all grow up together and come through together they will stick together and be great together.   I know it's madness and never been done but I think it could work.  Unless of course it is true - you can win nothing with kids?

If you're expecting our younger players to get even close to emulating the likes of Neville, Beckham and Scholes, three of the best players to have played for the best Premier League team, you are going to be sorely disappointed.


Quote
You say it is asking too much of them to play in the premier league.

No I didn't say that at all, maybe if you spent as much time reading posts as you do compiling your pompous Blackwellian epics, then you'd understand.  I said it was a mistake to put all our faith in them, and I stand by that, unless you expect Marc Albrighton to be able to play at the same level that Young consistently has for a whole season.  I'm all for giving youth a chance, but not putting all of our eggs in the one basket marked "cost cutting".
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 03:32:09 PM by Risso »

Offline sonlyme

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2011, 04:46:47 PM »
Risso - I think we need to agree to disagree.  As my cup is half full and yours is half empty.  Whatever the facts and figures - the rights and wrongs - I think we go forward better if we are positive and optimistic - in all aspects of life - not just professional football.

I will say no more.

Thank you.

Offline Risso

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2011, 05:04:19 PM »
Risso - I think we need to agree to disagree.  As my cup is half full and yours is half empty.  Whatever the facts and figures - the rights and wrongs - I think we go forward better if we are positive and optimistic - in all aspects of life - not just professional football.

I will say no more.

Thank you.

I think you progress in life and business if you know what you are doing and have a clearly defined goal and a plan to achieve that goal.  I do not believe that Randy knows what he's doing, nor that he has a plan that stretches beyond cutting costs, probably in preparation for a sale of the club to recoup his investment at some point in time not too distant from now, be it six months or two years.

Offline Dante Lavelli

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Re: Are we a selling club? Or are we a buying club? And does it matter?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2011, 06:11:19 PM »
Sonlyme,

Please post more often. Not everyone will agree - clearly - but your posts are well thought out and interesting to read (I'd guess) regardless of ones perspective.

 


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