Going down the youth route

[Villan For Life]

I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.

I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.

However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head"  and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).

Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.

do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight

What if we're not in a relegation dogfight? The right mixture of youth and experience should set us on a decent path.

I would rather see an academy graduate being given a chance than a mercenary money-grabbing journeyman.

Well i'll give you an example. Say we let Ivanhoe go this summer, would you be happy with Gabby, Bent, the Fonz and another youth player as our 4 strikers? Now i know the Fonz is rated in some circles but he's got to make the breakthrough soon, so say Bent got crocked for 3 months in December would you give him a try for say 6 games and see if he found his feet at the expense of maybe not scoring much or would you want AM to buy a replacement?

I think that Randy would encourage McLeish to pick the youth product. I don't think that he would authorise the signing of a player who would fill the gap left by the hypothetical Bent injury.

Ultimately you have to at least give the youth players a chance.

[Greg N'Ash]

I'd be happy with a quartet of Bent, Gabby, Delfouneso and Weimann next season. I thought Delfouneso looked pretty sharp when he started at Fulham, home to Blackpool last season.

But I'll quantify that by saying we do need to look at bringing in a couple of goalscoring players in other positions - wide an obvious example now Young's gone but also from central midfield. If we do that, I've no problems at all with those four strikers.

say we're about 14th in december, the crowd are on the manager's back and the players. you stick the Fonz in to fill Bents shoes. Asking a lot of the kid to find his feet in those circumstances. If it goes right, you've got a young player who's made the grade. If it goes wrong we'll in the bottom three by the time Bent comes back and the Fonz's confidence has been destroyed.

[Greg N'Ash]

I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.

I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.

However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head"  and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).

Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.

do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight

What if we're not in a relegation dogfight? The right mixture of youth and experience should set us on a decent path.

I would rather see an academy graduate being given a chance than a mercenary money-grabbing journeyman.

Well i'll give you an example. Say we let Ivanhoe go this summer, would you be happy with Gabby, Bent, the Fonz and another youth player as our 4 strikers? Now i know the Fonz is rated in some circles but he's got to make the breakthrough soon, so say Bent got crocked for 3 months in December would you give him a try for say 6 games and see if he found his feet at the expense of maybe not scoring much or would you want AM to buy a replacement?

I think that Randy would encourage McLeish to pick the youth product. I don't think that he would authorise the signing of a player who would fill the gap left by the hypothetical Bent injury.

Ultimately you have to at least give the youth players a chance.

true but in those hypothetical circumstances, everyone would be calling for AM to bring someone in during the January transfer window. A few goalless games and missed sitters from the Fonz and it would go from young promising player to "why's he playing a kid ffs?"

[Merv]

That's one scenario, sure. Another is that by December, the manager has already started Delfouneso in half a dozen or more games, he's bagged a couple of crucial goals, he's already found his feet and feeling confident in himself. When he needs to step up, he's more than capable.

Or another scenario is that the manager shifts his formation, plays Gabby as a lone striker (done it before, very successfully), brings in Bannan and plays an attacking three behind him - Albrighton, Bannan, Downing. Delfouneso is the first change striker off the bench.

Good fun, this game.

The point is, it's not about youth players v making any other signings ever. It's whether our investment in a youth policy results in young players graduating to the senior team and developing and contributing to the senior team. We're doing that, and doing it very successfully.

[Villan For Life]

I'd be happy with a quartet of Bent, Gabby, Delfouneso and Weimann next season. I thought Delfouneso looked pretty sharp when he started at Fulham, home to Blackpool last season.

But I'll quantify that by saying we do need to look at bringing in a couple of goalscoring players in other positions - wide an obvious example now Young's gone but also from central midfield. If we do that, I've no problems at all with those four strikers.

say we're about 14th in december, the crowd are on the manager's back and the players. you stick the Fonz in to fill Bents shoes. Asking a lot of the kid to find his feet in those circumstances. If it goes right, you've got a young player who's made the grade. If it goes wrong we'll in the bottom three by the time Bent comes back and the Fonz's confidence has been destroyed.

The Fonz has been around the 1st team squad long enough now to not be considered "youth". Your logic applies more to Weimann.

It's a hypothetical scenario; would we end up in the bottom three? We could hypothetically change our tactics for the duration of the Bent absence and play Gabby as a lone striker.

[Mazrim]

It's unrealistic, I feel, for any club to expect a nucleus of youth players to all turn into world beaters at the same time - it's happened once to a PL team as far as I can remember, the most famous example anyone ever quotes.

But what we have got now is a group of kids who are all maturing nicely, who all played decent roles in the team and squad last season, and all (or most) who I would expect to feature next season. Some of them prominently. And while some of them perhaps won't be major players next season, what that allows us to do is to operate without having to spend good money on squad players.

Next season Albrighton, Clark, Bannan, Delfouneso, Baker, Lichaj, Gardner, Herd and Hogg (and also perhaps Weimann) can all, as far as I can see, play meaningful roles in the first season squad. The first two of them arguably deserve to be nailed-on starters, the next two certainly pushing hard for starts. Baker and Lichaj, from what I've seen, are more than capable of being, at least, back-up players for the full-back positions.

That's ten players there who could justifiably compete for places or play some part in the first team next season. That's a very high ratio - I don't see any other PL club bringing through better youth players at the rate we are. It hopefully scraps the need for us to go hunting around for wasters like Habib Beye to fill a squad place, and allows the manager to focus on recruiting more established players, the 'big names' who can lead the side.

Well said mate.

And from what Ive seen/heard/been told etc there are a few lads in the 15-17 group that could be very very special indeed.

In the meantime I have no doubts whatsoever that Albrighton, Clark and Gardner will become top players and I still think Delfouneso, Bannan, Lichaj, Siegrist, Herd and Weimann have a great chance. I'm not sure about Baker, Lowry and Hogg but they have potential and are both solid players.
We have to see something of this age group this season to get a better idea of how ready they are. How capable.

Behind them we have the likes of Johnson, Williams, Carruthers, Serrano and Burke who I like. And the same sort of percentage of maybes that the current lot have. It's all looking good and we'll be after more.
As the quality rises it will force those who are questionable out sooner and the more promising younger players can move up. There's always another batch hot on their heels.

[King of the Nørth]

 Ajax have been doing it for what 30 years? IMO were only really starting to bare fruit now. I think now the English mentality of teams/coaches of saying ' he's not big enough' is slowly starting to be phased out we may see the slight yet more technical players coming through. Which can only be a good thing as far as AVFC have been concerned as we have produced many of these in the past, not making the grade.

 I believe recently we are starting to see more consistent results as far as the youth academy is concerned. I think good coaching combined with the recent development of Bodymoor heath must have had an impact. We can all see the likes of Clark and Albrighton as regulars in the side in the years to come. We've seen Baker, Lichaj, Delfouneso & Bannan showing glimpses that they can do it. G.Gardner and Weimann to come, with others to follow.

 The future should be to bleed out MON's 30 something dud's and combine youth with big money, quality signings. In a way the emergence of Man City & Liverpool's possible resurgence means there's even less pressure or expectation for us to make the Champions league. Which should mean more opportunity to give the youth a chance.

[jonzy85]

It's unrealistic, I feel, for any club to expect a nucleus of youth players to all turn into world beaters at the same time - it's happened once to a PL team as far as I can remember, the most famous example anyone ever quotes.

But what we have got now is a group of kids who are all maturing nicely, who all played decent roles in the team and squad last season, and all (or most) who I would expect to feature next season. Some of them prominently. And while some of them perhaps won't be major players next season, what that allows us to do is to operate without having to spend good money on squad players.

Next season Albrighton, Clark, Bannan, Delfouneso, Baker, Lichaj, Gardner, Herd and Hogg (and also perhaps Weimann) can all, as far as I can see, play meaningful roles in the first season squad. The first two of them arguably deserve to be nailed-on starters, the next two certainly pushing hard for starts. Baker and Lichaj, from what I've seen, are more than capable of being, at least, back-up players for the full-back positions.

That's ten players there who could justifiably compete for places or play some part in the first team next season. That's a very high ratio - I don't see any other PL club bringing through better youth players at the rate we are. It hopefully scraps the need for us to go hunting around for wasters like Habib Beye to fill a squad place, and allows the manager to focus on recruiting more established players, the 'big names' who can lead the side.

Well said mate.

And from what Ive seen/heard/been told etc there are a few lads in the 15-17 group that could be very very special indeed.

In the meantime I have no doubts whatsoever that Albrighton, Clark and Gardner will become top players and I still think Delfouneso, Bannan, Lichaj, Siegrist, Herd and Weimann have a great chance. I'm not sure about Baker, Lowry and Hogg but they have potential and are both solid players.
We have to see something of this age group this season to get a better idea of how ready they are. How capable.

Behind them we have the likes of Johnson, Williams, Carruthers, Serrano and Burke who I like. And the same sort of percentage of maybes that the current lot have. It's all looking good and we'll be after more.
As the quality rises it will force those who are questionable out sooner and the more promising younger players can move up. There's always another batch hot on their heels.

You obviously know a lot more about these young players than most of us and I share the hope that they will make the breakthrough.

But, unfortunately, the fact remains that very few of these young players realise their potential and become Premier League players. What's more is that the bigger clubs are also developing their youth systems and doing so by buying up the best talent from around the globe. So while it's great we are producing quality local (for the most part) talent, we are still going to fall behing the bigger clubs in this area as well.

The "youth route" should be a continuous strategy for all clubs and not a change in policy. We should always be looking to bring in youth players to the first team. But they need to blooded gradually, although a lot of ours were thrown in last season due to necessity.

Clark and Albrighton need to step in to be fully fledged first teamers this year. We need to be saying the same about Bannan and Fonz this time next year or I fear they wont make the grade. The rest need to impress the new manager and take any chances that come their way, but we certainly shouldnt be looking to build a team around them.

[Merv]

The other aspect to developing youth players, of course - the Plan B - is that if they don't ultimately cut it at Villa, they generate transfer revenue. There's obviously a far better margin in selling a Craig Gardner than selling on a Habib Beye or a Marlon Harewood or a Steve Sidwell or a.... (insert knackered old pro here)

Make no mistake, that's another reason for developing good young players. If they're not quite good enough for us, they will be for another PL or Championship club.

[Mister E]

Greg, I don't think your opening question was particularly theoretical. It IS the way the club will have to compete: we cannot afford to buy success (at least not if we want it quickly) and the strategy therefore has be developed as a combination of the Arsenal way (grabbing the youth potential from as wide a geography as possible and developing them in our academy) and the Chelsea way (buying the finished article, spending as much as we can afford).
And I don't think this is a new approach.
And since no one has mentioned it explicitly above (although it was hinted at) we will - like most of the middling P'ship clubs - be a 'selling club': until we can offer regular Chumps Lge, our better players will get poached by clubs that can.
Our challenge is to (i) continue developing enough good players that we can stock our first team squad with talented youngsters who retain some loyalty; (ii) sell those in demand for the best possible price and build in sell-on clauses for all of them when they do go; (iii) buy experienced players who can add value to the development of our youngsteres as well as contributing to the first team performance.
So, McGinge has a real responsibility - IMHO - to continue the good work, make sure he becomes known as someone who values good youngsters and plays them when appropriate and also retains / brings in the experienced players that can help. By doing all that he will ensure that Villa continue to be seen by the future stars as the place to learn their trade.

I know that other clubs probably could write the same thing about their strategy, but the difference is that we sem to be doing all the right things in the Academy, courtesy of Mr Jones and his team there.

[Phil from the upper holte]

I don't know if Bannan can cut it, he's shown glimpses but he's also faded in a lot of games, it's been discussed on the transfer thread, he can't be loaned out again, If he's going to be part of the first team it has to be now for me!

The Fonz, Like Agbonlahor, he divides opinion. Is he strong enough? GH said he needed to man up. One goal at Burnley & he looked lost at times.

Lichaj he looked ok to me when he played, it was rumoured he took the blame of the man city debacle, for me I think he can cut it. Need to see him more really.

Albrighton, the best of the lot for me but at times last year he looked short of ideas, was it Wigan when he came on and was terrible? it was one of the latter home games I recall.

Clark, Looks good, played in Midfield when we had injuries he did OK, best position CB or make shift LB for me, He is prone to mistakes though and looks like he could get sent off every game.

Weimann not sure my mate supports watford he said he was shite

Can we play them all in the same team at the same time?? For me No.

We need a mix of experience and youth imo.

[Merv]

I don't think anyone's suggesting they all play in the team at the same time. Definitely not.

[Neil Hawkes]

As we appear to have a better than average crop of yougsters coming through; one would hope the requirement for squad fillers would no longer be necessary - this had cost us a fare few million over the years.
If our new manager is happy with the youth as back-up, we can spend 'whatever' budget we have on excellence and not journeyman dross.

[garyshawsknee]

It's getting the balance of giving them experience and over playing them right. Until Christmas Albrighton was playing really well,then his formed dipped due to tiredness and maybe defenders sussing him out a bit.

This is to be expected with young players,though you don't wanna put them in situations where their confidence gets battered.

If they can get 15 to 20 games experience that'll be a bonus. I really hope Clark Albrighton and Delph can cement their place in the first team this season and Gardner,Johnson get some experience.

[Mazrim]

There's no reason to think we'll "fall behind bigger clubs" in this regard.

Firstly, Aston Villa is a massive club. If you're a kid its a tantaslising prospect coming to Villa.

Secondly we've already been taking players at the expense of other clubs who might be considered as big or bigger.
The truth is that if you make a name for yourself in terms of producing young players you will be considered before other clubs. It wont always play out that way of course, but the type of kids you want, the ones who see past going to a so called "top 4" club in order to make a name for themselves at a club with ambitions and precedent for bringing players all the way through, who have lavished funding on facilities to that end, will as often as not or more often than not, choose Villa.

We've set our stall out for this already. It is the future I believe.
What are we going to do otherwise? Try and pick up the scraps that the champions league clubs dont want? How will we ever compete for honours?
We wont be the only club trying things this way, but we'll be one of the best at it hopefully.