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Author Topic: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .  (Read 36720 times)

Offline Greg N'Ash

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2011, 10:28:16 AM »
the new rules are purely intended to keep the status quo - platini's supporters are the Mancs, Real Madrid's of this world who no matter how many millions of pounds of debts they owe will still be able to compete as long as they make a profit, while any upstart club with a rich owner will be excluded even if its coming out of their own pocket. could only happen in FIFA corrupt football world where a a club with an owner worth billions could be seen less financially secure that a club who owe 500m to hedgefunds. Bascially we can look forward to the same names winning everything and we can forget it

Offline ClaretAndBlueBlood

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2011, 10:43:11 AM »
only the clubs in the champions league will be able to afford the best players so guess what, the same clubs will qualify for the champions league year after year, with maybe the odd exception if a club vastly over achieves.

the new rules will make it more of a closed shop than it currently is

Offline mazrimsbruv

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2011, 11:04:55 AM »
only the clubs in the champions league will be able to afford the best players so guess what, the same clubs will qualify for the champions league year after year, with maybe the odd exception if a club vastly over achieves.

the new rules will make it more of a closed shop than it currently is

It's like bringing in a new rule where you can only buy the same make & model of car that you drive now, for the rest of your life.

Imagine all the blokes driving Bentleys and Porsches saying: "Damn! Really? Do I have to? Oh, well".

It's all academic now anyway cos by the time FFP kicks in, we'll be playing in the Chamionship or League One. 

Offline Concrete John

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2011, 11:36:19 AM »
I haven't read the proposed rules in any great detail, but I agree that if clubs are limited to their turnover only then it kills of the ambition of the 2nd tier clubs, of which I'd count us as one, who would wish to either invest or borrow to crash the party.

Offline cb

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2011, 12:22:13 PM »
As far as I'm concerned, the new rules are just the same as it ever was. The clubs who are already in the CL will have larger revenue streams and therefore greater possibility of buying the players to maintain their position. The clubs outside the CL will not have such revenue and so will not be able to break into the exclusive Gentleman's club. It is for this reason that we always hit a glass ceiling everytime we get close. There's only two ways to break this. 1. Go all Man City on it and spend fractions of a billion on buying superstars and prima donnas to smash through OR 2. Build your club up by consistently unearthing many future superstars, selling them to the mega rich clubs and reinvesting the proceeds. If you can do this consistently then you can develop the critical mass of players needed to break through.

We know option 1 is beyond us (and will probably be beyond everyone when the new rules come in), so we have to go for option 2. To achieve this we need a manger who is well connected and has a top level scouting network, which for me makes it all the more odd that the club went for McLeish. He has no real history of taking this approach and this is what worries me about him.

In my opinion the primary focus of the manager of Aston Villa should be on player development and scouting. Of course we need to keep an eye on results and football quality, but I do not think the objectives are mutually exclusive. Maybe we need to go the Spurs route and at least have a temporary DOF to find the talent, with a coach looking after the first team. Again I know this model is not favoured in the UK, but had we appointed McLeish supported by a DOF I would feel a lot better about the appointment. I just don't see what it achieves bar ensuring PL survival, and he doesn't even have the greatest of records with that!

Offline Salsa Party Animal

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2011, 12:51:45 PM »
If Financial fair play. I suppose a club will pay player 50 grand a week plus 20 grand a week on pension instead of say 110 grand a week and will player's pension be included in figures.

Offline Tokyo Sexwhale

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2011, 01:08:06 PM »
To be successful under these constraints then our management needs the following skill sets:

1.  Ability to coach and develop our young players;
2.  A state-of-the-art scouting network - to identify and obtain the best young players whilst they're still relatively cheap; or to spot foreign bargains;
3.  Good links with agents of the above;
4.  Competent management capable of keeping us at least competitive against our rivals - Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland.
5.  Ability to manage and reduce the expectations of the fans whilst this happens.

How many of the boxes do our Board and new Manager tick?

Offline Macho Man Randy Savage

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2011, 01:48:12 PM »
Maximising and making the best use of revenue is going to involve appointing a manager who can play winning, attractive football that people will pay to see, exploiting commercial revenue, a fruitful scouting network to get players at reasonable prices, and a good youth system. We need to do a lot of work on commercial revenue and scouting.

Offline Fuse

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2011, 02:23:48 PM »
I may be being a bit thick here (wouldn't be the first time) but won't the new rules further strengthen the current divide between the 'big' clubs and the rest? Yes, it may stop rich Arabs or Russians throwing silly money at players but as they have higher turnover they can pay more for players, whereas the lesser/normal clubs will by definition get poorer

In my view that is the whole reason it has been brought in. To protect the elite from some johnny come lateley, like a Man City, from upsetting the CL elite that has been in existence for the last 10 years plus. In my view we had a chance to break the elite, we didn't and this is now accepting that fate.

If anything the gap is going to get wider and wider and it will kill football completely

Good point - At the moment the only way to genuinely elevate yourselves into the upper reaches is by getting rich owners pumping stupid money in, a la Chelsea and Citeh.  If UEFA have their way, that will no longer be an option, and the status quo will be more difficult to breach.  Plus the bigger clubs will no doubt push for individual TV rights like Real and Barca have, in order to boost their turnover, and thus their wager limit.

Offline TonyD

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2011, 02:26:19 PM »
I am waiting to win the lottery one day.  It has to happen.

Offline TheSandman

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2011, 02:37:19 PM »
Well we are quite frankly deluded if we are waiting for financial fair play to save us. As others say it will only serve to propagate a natural order that will be deeply difficult to penetrate. We are a second tier club in a largely industrial city which undermines us. We cannot charge the ticket prices of a Spurs and we don't have the level of support that Liverpool have. The rules will only serve to push us further behind these clubs unless we are lucky as our turnover will be miles behind. Then there is the additional income from Champions League football that will reinforce this order of teams. The other big issues I see are loopholes. For example sponsorship deals and teams who will go out on big sprees in the years leading up to the introduction of the rules. And of course this is all forgetting that these rules will probably never be strong enough to actually work.

By all means try to run the club in a sustainable fashion. Just don't expect to be particularly successful when doing it or relay on external factors as you have no control over these.

Offline PONGO49

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2011, 03:11:36 PM »
what stop abramovich or sheikh mansour, well one of there companies sponsoring the corner flags for £200m,

Offline garyfouroaks

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2011, 03:58:28 PM »
The following is as good a plain explanation as  I have seen, taken from Liverpool supporting Paul Tomkins Blog. If you follow the link you will see an extended analysis of Liverpool’s position which is very inetersing – if like me you like that sort of thing:

•   UEFA Financial Fair Play. A phrase that has been used in recent times by even the most lay of football fans. But what is it? And does it matter for LFC? This article attempts to keep things extremely simple but at the same time demystify UFFP and explain how it impacts Liverpool Football Club.
Our principal owner, John W Henry, has given 2 interviews to The Guardian where he has talked definitively about FSG’s approach to ownership and UFFP. First of all in November 2010:
Henry said UEFA’s impending financial fair play rules, which will be introduced in 2012-13 and eventually require clubs to break even on football operations, had been a key factor in persuading NESV [now FSG] to buy the club. He said they would leave Liverpool much better-placed to compete with such clubs as Manchester City and Chelsea: “They are operating under the current rules. The rules are going to change.”
Then in an extended interview in February 2011:
“The big question is just how effective the financial fair-play rules are going to be. Perhaps some clubs support the concept in order to limit the spending of other clubs, while implementing activities specifically designed to evade the rules they publicly support. We can only hope that UEFA has the ability and determination to enforce what they have proposed.”
“We’ve always spent money we’ve generated rather than deficit-spending and that will be the case in Liverpool…it’s up to us to generate enough revenue to be successful over the long term. We have not and will not deviate from that.”
“We intend to get younger, deeper and play positive football…our goal in Liverpool is to create the kind of stability that the Red Sox enjoy. We are committed to building for the long term.”
So there we have it straight from the horse’s mouth. Not only do FSG embrace UFFP but they’re already planning to exploit it. However John Henry is right to raise the one big unknown about UFFP: how strictly will the rules be enforced? In a nutshell, if a club wants to compete in UEFA competitions it needs to be granted a UEFA license. The UEFA licensing system is already in operation. In recent times the highest profile club to have been denied a license is Real Mallorca who were unable to take their place in the Europa League (UEFA say a total of 27 clubs have been refused a license over the years). For 2011-12, 3 clubs have been refused a licence, including FC Timisoara for next season Champions League. UFFP is simply a complicated extension to the UEFA licensing system. So in theory a team in breach could be denied entry to the Champions League group stage and the £25m minimum that comes with it.
There are a lot of cynics and sceptics who think that UFFP will come to nothing and when push comes to shove UEFA will not stand up to the big boys. There’s also been a lot of ignorant discussion about loopholes in the regulations and scenarios that will never be allowed like the £100m half time pie for Sheikh Mansour or the £250m Chelsea sponsorship deal with Sibneft. However a lot of the concern is valid but is not in scope for this article because it’s too early to tell how possible any workarounds for clubs are. Instead my starting assumption is: can any owner or chief executive of a major club accept the risk of UEFA strictly implementing the UFFP regulations? i.e. will any club be brazen enough to spend with impunity and carry on regardless? Or will in fact all clubs come in line to some degree?
Why are UEFA doing this?
Despite the game being more popular than ever and with more money than ever, UEFA say that:
o   37% of clubs are in negative equity (their debts are more than their assets)
o   the total income of all European clubs is 11.7bn EUR but the total costs are 12.9bn EUR
o   no less than 7.4bn EUR of total costs are players wages
o   The average club in Europe spends 64% of its income on player wages
o   73 clubs spend more than 100% of their revenue on player wages (note in 09/10 this included Manchester City)
UEFA want to start forcing clubs to live within their means, almost to save the clubs from themselves. It’s also no coincidence that the momentum behind UFFP grew during the global credit crunch that had been caused by too many people spending too much money today in the over-optimistic hope that they would have more money in the future and be able to pay it off later.
How Do The Rules Work?
All terms used in this section are defined in great detail in the UFFP regulations
Break Even Result = Relevant Income - Relevant Expenses
Deviation = SUM of BREAK EVEN RESULTS for each year in ACCOUNTING PERIOD
What is “Relevant Income”?
In a nutshell:
Revenue + Profit From Player Trading (Revenue is income from media, matchday and commercial)
NB: Profit from player trading is NOT as most football fans see profit on trading – more later
(There are a host of caveats and clarifications in the detail)
What is “Relevant Expenses”?
In a nutshell:
All Staff Wages + Cost Of Transfers + “Other Costs” (e.g. finance costs)
NB: “Other Costs” EXCLUDES the costs of youth/academy programmes, community programmes and stadium development [technical note from Graeme Riley - this also includes interest on the development, which can be capitalised and amortised, rather than immediately expensed].
This is because UEFA wants clubs to plan for the future by investing in these things rather than spending all their money on players wages.
The “Cost of Transfers” will be covered when later on when I talk about AMORTISATION. Understanding this as well as the profit from player trading is absolutely essential if you want to realise how FSG are likely to exploit UFFP.
What Are The Rules?
UFFP has “Accounting Periods” that are aligned to the UEFA licensing cycle and came into effect on 1st June 2011. The first “accounting period” is 2 years, 1st June 2011 to 31st May 2013. The niceties regarding exchange rates have been ignored for this article.
For each year in UFFP, a club’s “Break Even Result” is allowed to be up to a 5m EUR loss. This is known as “acceptable deviation”. Clubs are allowed to make bigger losses for “Accounting Periods” but only if their owners invest more of their own cash into the club to cover the loss.
For the first 2 year accounting period, clubs are allowed a maximum “acceptable deviation” of 45m EUR but owners will be tasked with finding up to an extra 35m EUR in cash to cover losses. The grey areas will start with aggregate losses >45m EUR and at what point UEFA will draw the line. The general feeling is that clubs who are significantly reducing their losses year on year will still be given a ‘pass’ (Annex XI of the regulations)
The first impact on licensing decisions will be in place for the 2014/15 season (i.e. the first time a club may be denied entry to the CL is 2014/15). Things get gradually stricter from that point on. The 2nd accounting period extends the 1st by a year license (i.e. to May 31st 2014) and from this point 3 years’ worth of accounts are required to be submitted in order to gain a license. However, acceptable deviation STILL an aggregate 45m EUR. Then there’s a rolling 3 year accounting period where acceptable deviation reduces to 30m EUR and finally to less than 30m EUR in 2018/19.
The rest is Liverpool based, but interesting nonetheless.
http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/06/fair-play-for-fenway/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheTomkinsTimes+%28The+Tomkins+Times%29

Offline Villa'Zawg

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2011, 10:46:50 AM »
The amount of work that has gone into understanding and explaining the issues in that Liverpool fan's post is remarkable. The detail stats and graphs are a thing of beauty to a nerd like me...



"The colours are used as indicators specifically relating to each column of data.  The purpose is to allow for a targeted deeper analysis of the ‘red’ cells and maybe the ‘oranges’ too.  For Age it’s simple, the ‘red’ zone is over 30, for contract length it’s any player with contract ending in 1 year, for LTCC it’s any contract with a total monetary commitment over £10m."


Offline Risso

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Re: Lerner reasoning re the Financial Fair Play rules .
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2011, 11:31:28 AM »
Ooh, that's quite lovely.  Will have a better read at home tonight.

 


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